Is the Helldiver better than the Helldiver?

SaparotRob · Apr 14, 2020

Was the Curtiss SB2C really better than the Douglas SBD?
I like both aircraft. Over the years I read specs about them (not from you guys ) and I'm wondering, Helldiver or Helldiver?
I've heard of SBD's referred to Helldivers.

swampyankee · Apr 14, 2020

Helldiver was, if I recall, trademarked by Curtiss. Whoever was calling Douglas SBD's "Helldivers" was guilty of trademark infringement. Were they to do that today, somebody would send the Copyright Enforcement Kneebreakers after them or, worse, their ~~Pin-Striped Terrorists~~ copyright lawyers.

The SB2C had better warload, but poorer handling than the SBD. The SBC2 was considerably faster than the SBD. The SB2C's failures were all due to the time it took to get into service and its handling problems.

michaelmaltby · Apr 14, 2020

The SBC2 was briefly built, under license, by Hawker Sydley, in Ft William (Thunder Bay) ON. The plant had been building Hurricanes under Manager Ellsie MacGill. The conversion to the Helldiver was chalk to cheese ... the Curtis Boys ran her rough shod and the ECOs just kept pouring in .... and she was gone. But a milestone ...
Elsie MacGill - Wikipedia

SaparotRob · Apr 14, 2020

Thanks. I remember reading pilots preferring the SBD. As I was about 7 (JFK in office), I thought something new had to be better. Over the years the bit I read had them both about equal.
I believe there may have been a squadron flying SBDs nicknamed Helldivers OR I might be thinking of a movie from the late 30's.
Please don't have my legs broken.
All those times I flew over Thunder Bay (coolest name ever) unaware of aviation history.

Lucky13 · Apr 14, 2020

USS Yorktown CV-10's Captain, Captain J. J. Clark, couldn't return to port fast enough to get rid of them and replace them with SBD-3's instead. I don't if it was him or someone else, who said that they wouldn't even use them as anchors....

tomo pauk · Apr 14, 2020

SaparotRob said:
Thanks. I remember reading pilots preferring the SBD. As I was about 7 (JFK in office), I thought something new had to be better. Over the years the bit I read had them both about equal.
I believe there may have been a squadron flying SBDs nicknamed Helldivers OR I might be thinking of a movie from the late 30's.
Please don't have my legs broken.
All those times I flew over Thunder Bay (coolest name ever) unaware of aviation history.

IIRC it was mentioned in the 'Shattered sword' that Japanese ship crews, once they determined that US SBDs managed to initiate their dives towards Kaga, were shouting 'Helldivers!!'. We know that military inteligence can be spotty for the new enemy stuff, like the WAllies calling Ki 27s as Zeros, so this looks plausible to me.
Japanese shipmates probably knew that there was a Helldiver dive bomber in US arsenal, even if it was a biplane, so the new version must be a simple conversion from a biplane to monoplane, right?

We don't break any legs here, unless those are fried chicken legs

davebender · Apr 14, 2020

SB2C could carry a greater payload because it had about 50% more engine power. That does not make it a good aircraft. I tend to believe the multitude of first hand pilot comments about poor flight characteristics. This is an aircraft that should never have been approved for mass production.

RCAFson · Apr 14, 2020

SaparotRob said:
Was the Curtiss SB2C really better than the Douglas SBD?
I like both aircraft. Over the years I read specs about them (not from you guys ) and I'm wondering, Helldiver or Helldiver?
I've heard of SBD's referred to Helldivers.

The SB2C-1 was a terrible aircraft. The SB2C-1C was passable, but had poor divebomb accuracy, and the later versions (with perforated dive flaps) of the SB2C-3 were quite good. The SB2C-3 finally had adequate power and steady diving characteristics, and it was superior to the SBD in almost every way, except for being overweight, and as a consequence it built up too much speed in a dive, which required a 'stepped' dive with the final dive being made at 10-12k ft.

swampyankee · Apr 14, 2020

SaparotRob said:
Thanks. I remember reading pilots preferring the SBD. As I was about 7 (JFK in office), I thought something new had to be better. Over the years the bit I read had them both about equal.
I believe there may have been a squadron flying SBDs nicknamed Helldivers OR I might be thinking of a movie from the late 30's.
Please don't have my legs broken.
All those times I flew over Thunder Bay (coolest name ever) unaware of aviation history.

I'm not from the RIAA or DIsney; no need to worry about knee-capping.

SaparotRob · Apr 14, 2020

swampyankee said:
I'm not from the RIAA or DIsney; no need to worry about knee-capping.

tomo pauk said:
IIRC it was mentioned in the 'Shattered sword' that Japanese ship crews, once they determined that US SBDs managed to initiate their dives towards Kaga, were shouting 'Helldivers!!'. We know that military inteligence can be spotty for the new enemy stuff, like the WAllies calling Ki 27s as Zeros, so this looks plausible to me.
Japanese shipmates probably knew that there was a Helldiver dive bomber in US arsenal, even if it was a biplane, so the new version must be a simple conversion from a biplane to monoplane, right?

We don't break any legs here, unless those are fried chicken legs

Now I have to re-read my copy of Shattered Sword. I didn't know there was going to be homework.

SaparotRob · Apr 14, 2020

tomo pauk said:
IIRC it was mentioned in the 'Shattered sword' that Japanese ship crews, once they determined that US SBDs managed to initiate their dives towards Kaga, were shouting 'Helldivers!!'. We know that military inteligence can be spotty for the new enemy stuff, like the WAllies calling Ki 27s as Zeros, so this looks plausible to me.
Japanese shipmates probably knew that there was a Helldiver dive bomber in US arsenal, even if it was a biplane, so the new version must be a simple conversion from a biplane to monoplane, right?

We don't break any legs here, unless those are fried chicken legs

SaparotRob · Apr 14, 2020

If they removed the top wing of the F3F would that produce an instant Buffalo?

GrauGeist · Apr 14, 2020

The Dauntless was occasionally called "Slow but Deadly", but not Helldiver that I've heard any Navy pilot mention.

Had a long-time acquaintance heap nothing but praise on the SBD and lamented the day his air group replaced them. He flew with VS-6 and was at Midway, himself delivering a hit on the Akagi.

Lucky13 · Apr 14, 2020

....I only ever heard Son of a Bitch 2nd Class!

GrauGeist · Apr 14, 2020

Dana Bell · Apr 14, 2020

Remember that "Helldiver" was originally a generic term for dive bomber, which might explain the Japanese confusion. See:

Hell Divers (1931) - IMDb

Cheers,

Dana

Peter Gunn · Apr 14, 2020

^^ This, from my reading I think that term went back to the early thirties or even the late twenties to denote dive bombers.

nuuumannn · Apr 15, 2020

The first named 'Helldiver' was the SBC biplane, although F8Cs were initially officially called Helldivers by the manufacturer, but the navy apparently did not pursue the name. That didn't stop guys operating them using it though.

GrauGeist · Apr 15, 2020

I'm sure most of the guys here know this, but for the newcomers to WWII era (and earlier) USN type naming conventions, SBD stands for "Scouting Bomber, Douglas", SBC stands for "Scouting Bomber, Curtiss" and SB2C stands for "Scouting Bomber 2nd type in the series, Curtiss".

Elmas · Apr 15, 2020

Italian Air Force operated 42 Helldiver aircraft from 1950 until 1959.
I spoke (late '70s) with an Engineer of the Reparto Sperimentale di Volo that thorougly tested the airplane as Pilots considered it very dangerous.
He told me that just another airplane was considered more dangerous by Italian Pilots, P-39.

Is the Helldiver better than the Helldiver?

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