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- #21
Italian co- belligerent air force
- Thread starter maxs75
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EAF51_Bear
Airman
Here again I am.
No news about ICAF OOB. I found Regia Aeronautica North Africa OOB and Regia Aeronautica Eastern Front (Russia) but is not waht you were looking for.
As you are Italian, i would like to suggest some books where you can read news about the ICAF (Italian Co-Belligerant Air Force), 1943-45. HWG:
Generic ICAF:
Giulio Lazzati – Ali nella tragedia – Mursia 1997
5°Stormo:
Giulio Lazzati – I soliti quattro gatti – Mursia, 1975 (Esaurito)
Adelmo Rigoli – 1943: decollo verso l'ignoto – LINT Editore, 1998
Paolo Voltan – Un pilota del cavallino Rampante – Editrice La Galaverna-Flaviana, 1990 (Esaurito)
Marco Mattioli - Bell P39 in Italian Service - Aviolibri IBN, 2003
51° Stormo (20° e 155° Gruppo):
Nicola Malizia – Quelli del Gatto Nero – I 60 anni del 51° Stormo, 1939-1999 – Stampato in privato, 1998
Gregory Alegi e Marco Gueli – Spitfire Italiani – Ufficio storico Aeronautica Militare, 2003
Stormo Baltimore (132° e 28° Gruppo):
Sponza e D'Agostino - Mister Bridge – Gabriele De Marco Editore, Treviso 1985 (Esaurito)
Antonio Mura - In volo tra guerra e pace, quarant'anni nell'Aeronautica Militare Italiana - Giorgio Apostolo Editore, 1995
Paolo Moci – Seguendo la Bandiera – Vita di un pilota - Giorgio Apostolo Editore, 2001
Ali Straniere in Italia, n.3 – Martin Baltimore (I Baltimore Italiani) – Ed. La Bancarella Aeronautica, 2004.
...and, by the way, i suggest you to download the documents you can find here (Italian language only, apologies!): DOWNLOAD
No news about ICAF OOB. I found Regia Aeronautica North Africa OOB and Regia Aeronautica Eastern Front (Russia) but is not waht you were looking for.
As you are Italian, i would like to suggest some books where you can read news about the ICAF (Italian Co-Belligerant Air Force), 1943-45. HWG:
Generic ICAF:
Giulio Lazzati – Ali nella tragedia – Mursia 1997
5°Stormo:
Giulio Lazzati – I soliti quattro gatti – Mursia, 1975 (Esaurito)
Adelmo Rigoli – 1943: decollo verso l'ignoto – LINT Editore, 1998
Paolo Voltan – Un pilota del cavallino Rampante – Editrice La Galaverna-Flaviana, 1990 (Esaurito)
Marco Mattioli - Bell P39 in Italian Service - Aviolibri IBN, 2003
51° Stormo (20° e 155° Gruppo):
Nicola Malizia – Quelli del Gatto Nero – I 60 anni del 51° Stormo, 1939-1999 – Stampato in privato, 1998
Gregory Alegi e Marco Gueli – Spitfire Italiani – Ufficio storico Aeronautica Militare, 2003
Stormo Baltimore (132° e 28° Gruppo):
Sponza e D'Agostino - Mister Bridge – Gabriele De Marco Editore, Treviso 1985 (Esaurito)
Antonio Mura - In volo tra guerra e pace, quarant'anni nell'Aeronautica Militare Italiana - Giorgio Apostolo Editore, 1995
Paolo Moci – Seguendo la Bandiera – Vita di un pilota - Giorgio Apostolo Editore, 2001
Ali Straniere in Italia, n.3 – Martin Baltimore (I Baltimore Italiani) – Ed. La Bancarella Aeronautica, 2004.
...and, by the way, i suggest you to download the documents you can find here (Italian language only, apologies!): DOWNLOAD
twentynine
Airman
- 13
- Jun 19, 2006
hello, I add to this thread because I am searching infos on p-38 used in italy.
I know one was captured before 1943 (p-38g), repainted with fascist colours and used to kill a b-17 (photos?!?).
Then some p-38 was used by co-belligerants after the 1943....but I have no further infos on the squadrons or the field they were used.
Thanks
@EAF_51_Bear: Complimenti...bel sito.
I know one was captured before 1943 (p-38g), repainted with fascist colours and used to kill a b-17 (photos?!?).
Then some p-38 was used by co-belligerants after the 1943....but I have no further infos on the squadrons or the field they were used.
Thanks
@EAF_51_Bear: Complimenti...bel sito.
EAF51_Bear
Airman
I believe U'r talking about this one...
A P-38G was captured by the Regia Aeronautica in Sardinia on June 12th, 1943. It seem the US pilot landed there because of the broken navigation compass.
Colonel Tony, C.O. of Regia Aeronautical Experimental Units (Centro Sperimentale di Volo di Guidonia) went to Sadinia, and flew the plane (painted with the RA colours, as yoiu can see in the picture) to Guidonia. As far as I remember, Col. Tondi, not knowing all the P-38 controls, by mistake ejected the canopy, so he flew part of the trip without the canopy windscreen.
In August the plane was also used in some intercept mission. In one of those Colonel Tondi shot down an american B17 of 419th BS, 301st BG.
After a flew flights the plane was therefore retired from service. The Italian fuel in fact was damaging the fuel storage compartment.
I have no news about any co-belligerant P-38. I know they have been used after the war by some Italian units. maybe I am wrong. Anyway there is a book on this subject:
M. MATTIOLI - LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTING - In italian service 1943-1955 - english/italiano - Edizioni IBN, 136 pges, € 14,90 - ISBN: 8875650101
As far as I can remember P-38 entered in service in Regia Aeronautica at the end of may-beginning June 1946 (war over). The first unit using P-38 was 4°Stormo, based in Capodichino.
A P-38G was captured by the Regia Aeronautica in Sardinia on June 12th, 1943. It seem the US pilot landed there because of the broken navigation compass.
Colonel Tony, C.O. of Regia Aeronautical Experimental Units (Centro Sperimentale di Volo di Guidonia) went to Sadinia, and flew the plane (painted with the RA colours, as yoiu can see in the picture) to Guidonia. As far as I remember, Col. Tondi, not knowing all the P-38 controls, by mistake ejected the canopy, so he flew part of the trip without the canopy windscreen.
In August the plane was also used in some intercept mission. In one of those Colonel Tondi shot down an american B17 of 419th BS, 301st BG.
After a flew flights the plane was therefore retired from service. The Italian fuel in fact was damaging the fuel storage compartment.
I have no news about any co-belligerant P-38. I know they have been used after the war by some Italian units. maybe I am wrong. Anyway there is a book on this subject:
M. MATTIOLI - LOCKHEED P-38 LIGHTING - In italian service 1943-1955 - english/italiano - Edizioni IBN, 136 pges, € 14,90 - ISBN: 8875650101
As far as I can remember P-38 entered in service in Regia Aeronautica at the end of may-beginning June 1946 (war over). The first unit using P-38 was 4°Stormo, based in Capodichino.
cheddar cheese
Major General
twentynine said:
There was a captured P-38 that was left in American marking and was used to take down a few B-17's. The story is here http://www.p-38online.com/phantom.html
EAF51_Bear
Airman
- I feel this is simply an hoax
- There is no evidence of any Lt.Rossi flying a P-38,
- The B-17 were not "a few" but only ONE (as reported by USAAF Missing Air Crew Report nr.490)
- There were several others take off on scramble, and the pilot was L. Tondi (not Rossi), as proven by the official reports at Guidonia Airport
In my opinion the rest is pure fantasy, nice to read, but not true, unless proven by official reports
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
EAF51_Bear said:
You may be very correct!
I show the only unit to fly the YB-40 was the 327BS, 92nd Bomb Group. They were stationed in England. Here's their site...
http://www.327th.org/327th Bomb Squadron.html
And I found a site that has a list of USAF personnel killed during the Berlin Airlift. There is no Harold Fisher...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1330372/posts
cheddar cheese
Major General
Interesting....
twentynine
Airman
- 13
- Jun 19, 2006
I know Italy was building a p38-like aircraft...but I really don't remember neither the builder nor the name of the plane.
Maybe some tests of this plane helped the mistake?!?
Someone remember the name of that plane...it's all the day I am thinking about it.
Maybe some tests of this plane helped the mistake?!?
Someone remember the name of that plane...it's all the day I am thinking about it.
EAF51_Bear
Airman
@Maxs75:
As we say in Italy: "a promise is a promise!"
After a few researches in my books, I decided that your question about the OOB of the ICAF deserves something more than a simple short answer on a forum. So I decided to make in in a .PDF format, and to add it to my website.
You can find the document in download HERE
What you are looking for is the first download you find in that page.
Apologies for not-Italian readers, as the document is in Italian language. Anyway I believe the OOB tables can be read by not-Italian speaking too!
As we say in Italy: "a promise is a promise!"
After a few researches in my books, I decided that your question about the OOB of the ICAF deserves something more than a simple short answer on a forum. So I decided to make in in a .PDF format, and to add it to my website.
You can find the document in download HERE
What you are looking for is the first download you find in that page.
Apologies for not-Italian readers, as the document is in Italian language. Anyway I believe the OOB tables can be read by not-Italian speaking too!
cheddar cheese
Major General
- Thread starter
- #32
Grazie EAF51!
Very interesting info about ICAF. And thanks for suggesting the books.
Can You confirm that 5° Stormo received P-39? Before that, I only read about P-39 serving with 4° Stormo (9°, 10°, 12° gruppo).
Regarding Balkan air force, was no. 13 squadron (greek) the original squadron from Greek air Force? Or was it a RAF squadron with greek pilots (like no. 351 and 352 RAF (Yugoslav) squadrons)? The original no. 13 RAF squadron was also serving in the Mediterranean, with Baltimores and later with Bostons.
Finally, some SM.91 info
http://www.worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html
Max
Very interesting info about ICAF. And thanks for suggesting the books.
Can You confirm that 5° Stormo received P-39? Before that, I only read about P-39 serving with 4° Stormo (9°, 10°, 12° gruppo).
Regarding Balkan air force, was no. 13 squadron (greek) the original squadron from Greek air Force? Or was it a RAF squadron with greek pilots (like no. 351 and 352 RAF (Yugoslav) squadrons)? The original no. 13 RAF squadron was also serving in the Mediterranean, with Baltimores and later with Bostons.
Finally, some SM.91 info
http://www.worldatwar.net/chandelle/v3/v3n1/italtwin.html
Max
EAF51_Bear
Airman
I confirm No.13 was a RAF Squadron with Greek personnel.
I will check again for 5° Stormo.
Bear
twentynine
Airman
- 13
- Jun 19, 2006
cheddar cheese said:
Grazieeeeee! I was still thinking about it.
You guys kick *** here...
EAF51_Bear
Airman
welll... Italians do it better! :LOL
- Thread starter
- #36
EAF51,
my doubt about no. 13 squadron raised becasue of th following:
13 Hellenic Squadron
*At this period, a problem arose by the fact that there were two squadrons in the R.A.F bearing the number 13, the first being the No 13 Squadron which was the "original" and the other , the Greek 13th .In all official references the second unit was called "Hellenic" and the letter "H" was appropriately placed after the Squadron's number.This did not prevent many misunderstandings and the confusing of the two units.Things did not improve when at one point both squadrons operated in the Mediterranean, both flying Baltimores!
Many years later, researchers and historians still confuse the two squadrons.
Max
my doubt about no. 13 squadron raised becasue of th following:
13 Hellenic Squadron
*At this period, a problem arose by the fact that there were two squadrons in the R.A.F bearing the number 13, the first being the No 13 Squadron which was the "original" and the other , the Greek 13th .In all official references the second unit was called "Hellenic" and the letter "H" was appropriately placed after the Squadron's number.This did not prevent many misunderstandings and the confusing of the two units.Things did not improve when at one point both squadrons operated in the Mediterranean, both flying Baltimores!
Many years later, researchers and historians still confuse the two squadrons.
Max
- Thread starter
- #37
Ciao, I wonder if you could repost or send me the pdf document, it seems I cannot download it. I have decided to build the P-38 that landed in Sardegna and eventually used by the RA against the American bombers, for a model competition later this spring, and I hope to find out what version the aircraft is and other details. Thank you for your time and efforts in sending me the pdf. La ringrazio.@Maxs75:
As we say in Italy: "a promise is a promise!"
After a few researches in my books, I decided that your question about the OOB of the ICAF deserves something more than a simple short answer on a forum. So I decided to make in in a .PDF format, and to add it to my website.
You can find the document in download HERE
What you are looking for is the first download you find in that page.
Apologies for not-Italian readers, as the document is in Italian language. Anyway I believe the OOB tables can be read by not-Italian speaking too!
