Jumo inverted vee's vs. Daimler-Benz inverted vee's - Pros and Cons

[Milosh]

Ta 152H maybe 150 produced but less than 1/3rd into service.

That number includes ALL the prototypes. All that could be managed operationally was a staffel.

We could also count in 1800 Fw 190D9

Those numbers are from the WNr list. About 1/2 that were produced.

 

[Vincenzo]

Those numbers are from the WNr list. About 1/2 that were produced.

only the D delivery from December '44 to 11th April '45 were over 1,000, the production was much higher

 

[Milosh]

I would like to see a list Vincenzo, if you have one. Considering the state of a/c manufacturing in Germany in '45 that seems an awful lot.

 

[Vincenzo]

Go to german wikipedia

 

[Milosh]

The direct link is ,,,,,

 

[Vincenzo]

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 – Wikipedia

 

[Denniss]

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 – Wikipedia
366 produced up to and including 11/44
Deliveries to Luftflotten from 12/44:
904 D-9
117 D-9/R11
35 D-9 EZ 42
13 D-11
4 D-11 EZ 42
2 D-13

 

[Koopernic]

I've waited a long, long time for someone to mention the Ring process. Typically German; academically fascinating but practically useless. You'd think that with all the Wright radials they'd recovered they would have 'discovered' the humble rubber O-ring and it's application to sealing the ignition system and pressurising same with supercharger air.
The ether fluid compound used in the Ring process supplied by IG FARBEN, (also makers of Zyklon B!) would have been yet another of the essential materials disrupted by strategic bombing that kept the Luftwaffe grounded.
Koopernic's reference to HCCI is right on the money. Throughout the tortured later years of research into HCCI by the car industry I was unceasingly amazed that no-one had remembered the Ring process which had achieved the one thing the latter hadn't; the engine could accelerate under load. Instead of tearing their hair out when their HCCI experimental engines stalled they should have intensively studied a Ring-process engine to discover its combustion secrets.

I knew someone would eventually connect homogenous charge compression ignition to the holocaust. Time to cancel compression ignition, all of it.

Modern attempts at HCCI try and establish the ignition point near top dead centre through variable compression, valve timing and phasing and or variable supercharging and exhaust gas recirculation with reversion to spark ignition when this is not possible.

One may as well use a small amount of tailored liquid, its no worse than "add blue" and likely much cleaner. I doubt that the small quantities required would have been a major supply bottleneck for the Recih, probably less so than Tetra Ethyl Lead or octane enhancers. In addition to efficiency the engines are effectively multifue.

 

[xylstra]

I knew someone would eventually connect homogenous charge compression ignition to the holocaust. Time to cancel compression ignition, all of it.

Modern attempts at HCCI try and establish the ignition point near top dead centre through variable compression, valve timing and phasing and or variable supercharging and exhaust gas recirculation with reversion to spark ignition when this is not possible.

One may as well use a small amount of tailored liquid, its no worse than "add blue" and likely much cleaner. I doubt that the small quantities required would have been a major supply bottleneck for the Recih, probably less so than Tetra Ethyl Lead or octane enhancers. In addition to efficiency the engines are effectively multifue.

The modern rendering is know as RCCI, "R" meaning "Reactive".

 

[emu27]

Just received your book after ordering it from Amazon before Xmas Calum, About a third of the way through and can't put it down, an easy read. Congratulations on a high quality product, both writing and production, only gripe is the illustrations with the alien language, I know it would have added a lot to your work load to have them translated, but being unable to understand what the illustration is depicting in detail sort of makes their inclusion questionable, the kommandogerat is a good example. Despite that gripe an AAAAAA++++ rating.

 

[rinkol]

Just received your book after ordering it from Amazon before Xmas Calum, About a third of the way through and can't put it down, an easy read. Congratulations on a high quality product, both writing and production, only gripe is the illustrations with the alien language, I know it would have added a lot to your work load to have them translated, but being unable to understand what the illustration is depicting in detail sort of makes their inclusion questionable, the kommandogerat is a good example. Despite that gripe an AAAAAA++++ rating.

I too have recently obtained a copy Calum's book. There is a tremendous amount of information that I have never seen published elsewhere. In particular, if you want to understand the constraints that the German engine designers worked under and the reasons for the seemingly strange choices they ssometimes made, you need this book!

 

[spicmart]

The various Jumo 213 versions A, F, E, EB, J and S. How much were their weights?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The various Jumo 213 versions A, F, E, EB, J and S. How much were their weights?

 

[Deleted member 68059]

The various Jumo 213 versions A, F, E, EB, J and S. How much were their weights?

Data for the A can be found in any of the manuals which are on this website and others.

 

[GregP]

Let's see ... Wiki is widely regarded as the worst source in the world except for no source, and now suddenly Wiki is being quoted for production numbers that seem to change with each decade, many lists of which are based on werk nummers rather than production deliveries (due to missing data) or acceptance data (also missing data)?

I'd not take werk nummer allocations as having been definitely produced. They were allocated, to be sure, but there is no evidence that all of them were produced and no evidence that all the delivered aircraft were all accepted for service, AFAIK.

Same for Bf 109 and many other aircraft.

You only have to look at the Ta 152 number to confirm this. About 150 produced and evidence that only about 43 made it into "service." By war's end, only two Ta 152Cs were operational.

I agree we should come up with generally accepted production numbers, but not by using allocated werk nummers (WNrs). That might work closely enough if factories weren't getting bombed on a regular basis ... but they were, and damage was incurred for sure.

 

[Shortround6]

I wouldn't trust US production numbers based just on allocated numbers

And the US wasn't being bombed. (maybe Brewster should have been?)

 

[spicmart]

View attachment 673313

Data for the A can be found in any of the manuals which are on this website and others.

I'm surprised that the Jumo 213J's dry weight was less than the E's (2205 lb. / 1000 kg to 2300 lb. / 1043 kg).
On wikipedia and other sites the Jumo 213E dry weight is given as 2072 lb. / 940 kg...

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I'm surprised that the Jumo 213J's dry weight was less than the E's (2205 lb. / 1000 kg to 2300 lb. / 1043 kg).
On wikipedia and other sites the Jumo 213E dry weight is given as 2072 lb. / 940 kg...

I would be extremely careful with these figures, and what they might actually mean.

For example, the "J`s" produced as far as we can see had "F" superchargers on (I think), as the final "J" version superchargers
with variable speed drives were probably not ready. Its not easy to say what these numbers refer to.

The "F" had no chargecooler, so would have been a lot lighter.... so is tricky to say whats-what. In other words,
a "J" with the final supercharger, would probably be more comparable with an "E", weight wise.

Here is another set of numbers... dry weight. Note this states that the "weight tolerance" itself is about 30kg !

So dont get too fastidious about this stuff. (92kg of fluids of all forms)

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I'm surprised that the Jumo 213J's dry weight was less than the E's (2205 lb. / 1000 kg to 2300 lb. / 1043 kg).
On wikipedia and other sites the Jumo 213E dry weight is given as 2072 lb. / 940 kg...

Here a British study on a captured 213A gives a (probably dry) weight of 2260lbs, "bare", which "probably means
without any of the coolers or pipework. We do not know why the weight has been underlined (thats original).

I think the wikipedia stuff is basically garbage. There is no way that an "E" version, with a two-stage supercharger and intercooler is 200lbs less than the first production variant.

 

[GregP]

I wouldn't trust US production numbers based just on allocated numbers

And the US wasn't being bombed. (maybe Brewster should have been?)

Best retort I've heard in some time about Brewster. Good one, Shortround6!