"LA Approach Control, United 931 inbound for landing, flight of twenty"

[MIflyer]

From Popular Mechanics

Could passenger planes begin flying in formation to draft each other's wingtip vortex effects? One Airbus-based startup concept thinks so. The concept uses a formation idea inspired by birds, who commute north to south and back in large V shapes to capitalize on the updraft generated by the birds in front.

When airplanes push through the air at high speeds, they generate something called wingtip vortex, also called wake turbulence, even though it's not true turbulence at all. True turbulence is more like the way fall leaves follow and swirl in circles after a car passes through, because cars are not as aerodynamic and are usually interacting with more complex surroundings. Wingtip vortex is so uniform and predictable that it lingers in the air for minutes and can even work to pull on the airplane, which is called vortex drag.

In the concept pushed by the Airbus incubator, appropriately named "fello'fly," planes line up over a mile apart, which is still close enough to benefit from the wingtip vortices generated on either side of the lead plane.

 

[Snautzer01]

Souds clever.

 

[GrauGeist]

Not a new concept, semi trucks on the highway and racecars have been doing it for quite some time.

With commercial aircraft, the logistics of getting flights of aircraft into groups would be a bit complex, though.

 

[AMCKen]

'Drafting' and riding the vortex (happens at low speed too) are two different things.

 

[fubar57]

......and the differences are?

 

[GrauGeist]

'Drafting' and riding the vortex (happens at low speed too) are two different things.

From the first paragraph:

Could passenger planes begin flying in formation to draft each other's wingtip vortex effects?

 

[MIflyer]

Also similar to brds I have heard more than one airline captain admit that a terrific navid is simply following the contrail in front of you that is heading for the same destination. When the 747 came out, with its INS, it became standard practice for ocean crossings to follow them. One captain admitted that he was enroute to Puerto Rico and lost a navaid. He asked ATC for a looping turn to the Right and got behind another airliner he knew was headed for the same airfield.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I could see that once driving/flying is fully automated and the vehicles communicate with each other at computer speeds.

 

[MiTasol]

I think one mile separation on landing would get very very interesting very fast.

That would work out to less than 30 seconds separation at the piano keys and does not give much tolerance for differences in deceleration and distances to taxiways -- which differ for different types of aircraft and even aircraft of the same type and different landing weights.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think one mile separation on landing would get very very interesting very fast.

That would work out to less than 30 seconds separation at the piano keys and does not give much tolerance for differences in deceleration and distances to taxiways -- which differ for different types of aircraft and even aircraft of the same type and different landing weights.

My thoughts -

O'Hare
Gatwick
Heathrow
Haneda
Atlanta

 

[GrauGeist]

My thoughts -

O'Hare
Gatwick
Heathrow
Haneda
Atlanta

View attachment 674447

Or, LAX...

 

[GrauGeist]

Also similar to brds I have heard more than one airline captain admit that a terrific navid is simply following the contrail in front of you that is heading for the same destination. When the 747 came out, with its INS, it became standard practice for ocean crossings to follow them. One captain admitted that he was enroute to Puerto Rico and lost a navaid. He asked ATC for a looping turn to the Right and got behind another airliner he knew was headed for the same airfield.

During the war, the contrails from the bombers were a homing beacon for the Luftwaffe.

Worse still, were accounts of the Me262s actually using the contrails as cover, emerging at the last moment to press their attack.

 

[pbehn]

Will the lead aircraft be painted orange with blue and white circles?

 

[SaparotRob]

Don't go wasting blue paint.

 

[pbehn]

Don't go wasting blue paint.

All blue paint not used on girders was wasted.

 

[MiTasol]

except in Ukraine where it identifies heros and potential heros

 

[MIflyer]

I've only been in an airliner that actually flew a pattern a couple of times and once was at Santa Barbara when they apparently were using myna birds as controllers, but imagine what a pattern with that formation flight would be like. Would you overfly and then call a break?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I've only been in an airliner that actually flew a pattern a couple of times and once was at Santa Barbara when they apparently were using myna birds as controllers, but imagine what a pattern with that formation flight would be like. Would you overfly and then call a break?

When approaching inbound you can request an overhead break to enter the pattern. I've seen guys in RVs do this at uncontrolled airports and cause havoc, especially if there are multiple aircraft in the pattern. At a controlled airport, this could be discouraged and possible not approved if the pattern is busy.

The "myna birds" you heard at KCBA were just acknowledging the request of the aircraft - per procedure. I've flown in there many times and the controllers are generally courteous and professional.

When schedule airliners arrive you normally don't fly a pattern, you fly a Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR) Procedure.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_4.html#:~:text=Standard%20Terminal%20Arrival%20(STAR)%20Procedures,route%20and%20instrument%20approach%20procedures.

 

[MIflyer]

I have flown in there with no problems more than once too. But when you have a 737 enter on a crosswind to downwind and be halfway down a pretty tight base just before another 737 pulls out onto the runway - and thus have to go around and this happens almost TWICE in a row I can only assume the tower is saying, "Awk! Clearedtoland! Awk!" The second time I could not believe it but the pilot managed to practice some slowflight and squeeze in behind the other 737.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have flown in there with no problems more than once too. But when you have a 737 enter on a crosswind to downwind and be halfway down a pretty tight base just before another 737 pulls out onto the runway - and thus have to go around and this happens almost TWICE in a row I can only assume the tower is saying, "Awk! Clearedtoland! Awk!" The second time I could not believe it but the pilot managed to practice some slowflight and squeeze in behind the other 737.

Yea, there some issues there, but again usually no problems, but when I say I've flown in there, it was in a GA airplane and I was flying. The only time I ever flown in KSBA commercial was last April