Late Hundert Neun ID

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by kettbo, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #1 kettbo, Oct 17, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2011
    OK, I have many books (older) on WW2 fighters but am sometimes stumped on telling later Bf-109G-6 from Bf-109G-14

    I know there were rebuilds, differences between the factories, the AS versions....it gets pretty clouded.
    Add to this captions and such, sometimes not the best.
    Do we tell from the WN on the tail only? Data Plate?

    The Squadron booklet is not adequate but says G-14 standard was; Erla haube canopy, tall tail with 2 trim tabs, and DB605A. Also noted the fitment of the pump bulges below the right side MG-131 boil.

    I intend to get PRIEN's et al book on the later 109s but any info now would be appreciated
    Also, what other books as reference?
     
  2. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    You almost got it!

    Look at the rudder to be sure which is which. The G-6 early had the forward facing diagonal cut above and ahead of the pivot, the later models had a clean vertical rudder from top to bottom. And then, on the later models, you can even narrow it down further by looking at the rudder's pivot point and trim tabs.
     
  3. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    any clues to ID if MW50 equipment is on board? I believe this was std to the G-14
     
  4. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    let me rephrase what I am looking for.
    The late G-6 had the tall tail with straight hinge, Erla Haube canopy, how is one to tell if he is looking at a G-6 or a G-14 which made these features standard?
    The G-10 an K-4 are pretty easy to distinguish
     
  5. vanir

    vanir Banned

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    I'm going on memory so might be worth double checking details, but these should point you in the right direction. I find LEMB are good with things like this.

    The tails are more like introduced to the various lines of production, which was undergoing vast reorganisation at the time I might add. Same with the canopy, standardised for all 109 production at dates at each airframe section's production line and not a matter of specific model.

    Here's what they did, under direction from RLM split production to become modular and regional, all 109 tails were produced at say three locations in bavaria, two in bohemia, etc. Each specific model was assembled to order, mostly fighter-bomber and bomber-interceptor mods by late-43 which aren't very clean for counter air. MW50 was standardised by mid-44 and the completed production system was finally in place during 44 so this all resulted in the centralisation and reorganisation of all former G-5, G-6 and G-8 109 production, which were therefore updated to current radio navigation and standard equipment and redesignated G-14.

    It wasn't really a new model, it was an administrative designation. All G-5, G-6 and G-8 production got reorganised to became the G-14. But the updates are a new instrument panel, new radio sets and MW50 kit standardisation. The entire measure was an interim for the K-4. The G-10 was a transitional supplement to the K-4, it didn't enter production until around the same time as they were waiting on the D series 605 engine. All 109 production was really waiting on the D series engine from about mid-43, it should've been in the late G-6 which should've been the last 109 model but the course of war changed things.

    So don't think of it so much as G-14 and G-6, G-10 and K series. Think of it as "109 production" a big centralised thing and each model little more than circumstantial specifics, which are defined more by where and when each assembled part was made and by whom, that defines their model. What the backlog of orders from airfields and the RLM list is what defines their mod fit and whether they are factory or conversion plus date of last tear down maintenance will define their equipment.

    It's all a big vat of 109 production, a big mixer by Speer's reorganisation but it is how 40,000 Me109 were produced that year, by just chucking it all in together and going for broke.

    So here are your tells:
    a G-14 is really a G-6, G-8, etc. to begin with, nothing has been changed but all 109 production has been updated at the factory to current radio network and general service standards
    you trace the information plate, there's a prefix for G-14 and werknummers were sometimes painted over, sometimes the old G-6 one was simply left. The other confusing issue is that when 109 production lines started tooling for K series parts they crept immediately into G-14 production, making it really hard to pick a G-14 from a G-10 after Nov44 and even sometimes the engines were the same spec in 45.
    Very few G-6 received MW50, those which were it was about Apr44 they started appearing and everyone referred to them as G-14, soon after every 109 was called G-14 as soon as it got a refit with the new radios. If done in the field a guage was bolted inside and it was called a partial conversion, if at the factory it got a new instrument panel.
     
  6. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Well the G-14 was rebuilt airframes for the most part iirc, in an attempt to standardize the 'G' series. Fail. Hence the G-10. G-5 G-6's were built right to the end of the war. Gyor, Hungary plant comes to mind on that. Not all G-14 used MW-50. B4 fuel was used with MW-50 however. C3 could use the MW-50. Dead giveaway is to look in the backside of the cockpit where the luggage hatch was replaced by a box that now housed a relocated battery so the MW-50/GM-1 equiptment would fit and keep the CofG within spec. The 'K' series came to life for the need for greater speed. G-10's came months before the 'K' series did. The DB 605D was used mainly in G-10 production, and there was a temporarly short supply when the 'K' was due.

    G-6's could be had with the Erla Huebe, 20cm tail extention, and the tall/short fin (not all late G-6's used the tall fin). An example can be seen here: Falcon's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Hangar. Its a Bf 109G-6/Y built at Gyor, Hungary.

    The small Beule below the starboard Mg131 Beule did appear on G-5 G-6's from Erla iirc. Some G-6/AS used and ultra rare cowl used on the starboard side manufactered by Mtt-Reg, seen drawings, but never a foto.

    As far as books, anything by Prien, Augburgs Last Eagles, Sams Modlers Guide, are good starts. Veltro (posts on 12oclock high, LEMB) has a very good book to.
     
  7. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #7 kettbo, Oct 18, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
    Vanir and Ratsel
    Thanks for your responses. I was led astray by the Squadron Messerschmitt Bf 109 in Action Part 2 by Beaman. Was led to believe the G-14 was a new model not admin for upgraded G5/6/8 though I suppose by AUG-SEP one could expect some factory built G-14s I'd think.....

    Yes, with 109s, always lots of caveats! This is what makes them so interesting. I have seen later build with short tail and old style canopy.

    G-10s, all rebuilds or some new and some old?

    re MW-50. Great tip looking for btty box behind the pilot's head. THANK YOU Ratsel

    Anyone care to hazard Mk-108 fitment questions?
    I recall someone posted a detailed loss statement for a certain day, many 109G-6/U-4.
    Would they equip say a Staffel with Mk-108 or a sprinkling here and there?
    I understand the initial fielding was small but the 30mm became more common later.
    20%--up to 50%???
     
  8. vanir

    vanir Banned

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    All G-10 were assembled from new build, mix and match G-6 and K-4 parts as the modular production centres started transitioning but also geared up existing production. Important to keep referring to 109 production as 109 assembly in 1944-45 because there were no longer any individual production lines, just assembly plants that only skinned and fitted the airframes to specification from planetary parts production, so of course multiple models came from the very same production lines as assembly stations expanded, Erla made both G-10 and K-4, some plants G-14 only, others G-14 and G-10, etc. some made different ones at different times and then switched back again, it was all modular and dependent on logistics and specification and how badly you were getting bombed that day.

    The Hungarian plant didn't get MW50 kits at one point IIRC and were the ones putting licensed 605A-1 robbed from Me210Ca lines into them, but they were still designated G-14 and had the new radio gear.
     
  9. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    G-14 was an attempt to standardize modifications that were introduced step-by-step into the G-6 by various manufacturers, MW-50 was also installe din late-production G-6. G-14 were not rebuilt older airframes, same with G-10.
    According to Military archive Freiburg reports:
    K-4 were only built at the Mtt plant Regensburg.
    G-6/U4: 1632 built at WNF, 31 in Györ
    plain G-6 and G-6 tp (tropical version): 7832 and 1417 + several hundred other G-6 modifications
    -> Not really a lot /U4 subversions with MK 108
    G-5/G-8 were not standardized as G-14 as there's no pressurized G-14 subversion, the G-8 stayed in production as well although it may have benefitted from some standardized parts.
     
  10. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    While I don't agree that all G-14's were new airframes, I'll concede that fact. Yes G-10's were 100% brand new airframes. K-4 was a Mtt-Reg domain. Der Mk108 placement is easy to spot if you know where to look. On the straboard side near near the #6 frame station there is a round access hatch for the compressed air fill for the Mk108, theres a small blast port bhind the right side exhaust, also indicating the Mk108 installation. The Mg151/20 did not have this. OR perhaps I read wrong and you want to no how many G-6's came with the 3cm cannon, if thats the case then if it was built at Mtt-Reg then theres a good chance it did. Especially with the later G-6's. But heres some other examples: Falcon's Messerschmitt Bf 109 Hangar
     
  11. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #11 stona, Oct 18, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
    An interesting thread! Unfortunately you would need to write a book to answer the original question.

    I thought K-4s in the 570000-571000 production block were to be produced at Erla. I know that Leipzig was occupied before production got into full swing but at least one example (W.Nr.570362) is known.
    Wiener Neustadt was also supposed to produce K-4s though this never happened.

    Cheers
    Steve
     
  12. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    I think W.Nr.570 362 was a K-6 and had the 3cm cannon mounted inside the wings (mostly), rather then in pods IIRC. Mtt-Reg was suspose to buld the majority of G-10's, but only built around 300 units, W.Nr. 130 000 - 130 500. They then exclusively built the K-4.

    EDIT: found the K-6 Erla wing:
    k-4 wing.jpg
     
  13. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Prien and just about everyone else has it as a K-4/R6,that is with a gun camera (BSK 16) in the port wing.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  14. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Which? The wing or W.Nr.570 362 ?
     
  15. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    The Werknummer. I'm with you on the mocked up wing.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  16. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    I'll adjust my notes.. many thanks.
     
  17. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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  18. kettbo

    kettbo Member

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    #18 kettbo, Oct 18, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
    Thank you for all the great responses folks!
    then I found THIS:
    Me109G-10 Dual Production Plates - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
    older thread but good info, some conflicting with what you all have told me with lots of reference to G-6 and G-14. IIRC, several mentioned G-14 being new build
    several references to G-6 being made into the Spring of 1945, losses to that date...

    Lots to digest with answers and more questions raised
    Difficult for me to tell

    If you have been avoiding the modelling threads, you have missed my 1/144 scratchbuilt GUSTAV. I set the project aside to do a charity cycling event in Connecticut. Now complete, healed, caught up with affairs of the household....nearly ready to get back to building. Using info from this thread to guide me toward the ultimate late '44 build...easily converted to mid '43--end of war with conversion kits. Plan was a very late G-6 / G-14 with cannon bumps and tall tail. One shot around 6 hours into it and another where I left off

    006.JPG

    007.JPG
     
  19. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Very nice! You should add the Neptune Radar to it!

    The link in post #17 is a good starting point, but unfortunately outdated. Much more aircraft can be added to that list. Especially for Erla Mtt-Reg.

    Kindest Regards
     
  20. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    How many 'much more'? Please note those numbers are for new build (ie from scratch) a/c and does not include the numbers re-manufactured using old airframes. For example, the NASM's Fw190 has 3 WNr.

    Another link, http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/sturmvogel/images/ussbs/exiii-dpt1.gif

    Specifically,
    http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/sturmvogel/images/ussbs/exiii-dpt1.gif
    http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/sturmvogel/images/ussbs/exiii-dpt1.gif
     
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