Leigh Light image - is it what it seems?

[WATU]

The attached image is on the Leigh Light Wiki and is captioned "Photograph of a destroyed U-boat illuminated by Leigh Lights". Initially I took it at face value but the more I looked at it the more uncertain I became. Why would a single source light produce six light streams? (Rocket attack?) The Wiki image was taken from a book called "A Brief History of the Royal Air Force" by C.J. Finn. I have a copy on order and have tried to contact the Wiki contributor. However I found what might be the original source within Coastal Command Review Vol 3 No 10 October 1944. This is captioned "This photo was taken after a night attack off the Norwegian coast on 24 September [1944] by Liberator A/224. The U-boat concerned was probably sunk". No mention of the Leigh Light or any illuminant such as 4" and 1.7" flares. Before it reached the CCR I expect the photo was part of the UBAT after attack report completed by the crew but so far I have not found that. To muddy the waters further the squadron logs at TNA do not show A/224 flying that night. It was operational and flew a patrol a few days before and then again a few days after. No U-boats were attacked by any 224 squadron aircraft on the days or several days either side. Niestle in U-boat losses only has one U-boat sunk that day and that was off the Azores. 224 squadron including A/224 was flying out of Milltown in Scotland and was operating over the North Sea to Norway. Possibly a typo error in the CCR caption as regards the date? The UBAT should be accurate being filled in within 24 hours of the action.

Would a Lib carry ASW flares as back-up to its Leigh Light? The squadron was equipped with Leigh Light presumably including aircraft A.

Anyone able to shed any light on this? (Pun intended....)

 

[EwenS]

Pretty sure it wouldn't have been a rocket attack. Attack profiles and cirfumstances ofvuse, for use of Leigh Light was different from that required for rockets. Leigh Light for night use, rockets by day. By Oct 1944, rocket equipped Liberators were being rotated out of the Liberator squadrons to be replaced by Leigh Light aircraft as U-boats spent most of their time schnorkelling.

 

[WATU]

Pretty sure it wouldn't have been a rocket attack. Attack profiles and cirfumstances ofvuse, for use of Leigh Light was different from that required for rockets. Leigh Light for night use, rockets by day. By Oct 1944, rocket equipped Liberators were being rotated out of the Liberator squadrons to be replaced by Leigh Light aircraft as U-boats spent most of their time schnorkelling.

Just wondered if the light streams might be rockets but they don't look like daylight rocket tracks to be honest. Clutching at straws. I'd never spotted that Libs were either/or with rockets and Leigh Lights. I assumed both could co-exist with rockets just on the port wing. I'll keep an eye open for any examples. The Leigh Light needed a good radar homing to get it within a mile and night radar location and tracking of a schnorkel was tough in any sort of Atlantic sea state. Its best time was when the U-boats charged on the surface at night.
RPs might be effective against a schnorkelling U-boat given a beam on attack although the pressure hull was probably a bit too deep. I imagine hits on the tower would likely cause mission ending damage but not a sinking. Depth charges preferred and a Mk 24 if the U-boat dived below periscope depth.

 

[EwenS]

There are a lot of photos around of Liberator GR.V serial FL927/G (G for Guard whilevtge aircraft was on the ground) with lower forward fuselage mounted rockets, Leigh Light and Dumbo radar nose. This was a trials aircraft at the A&AEE and was not representative of equipment fits on operational squadron aircraft.

I have a book somewhere with copies of the CC orders setting out the armament fits for Liberators from Nov 1943. Leigh Light equipped aircraft were armed with depth charges or Mk.24 Fido mines (homing torpedoes).

 

[GrauGeist]

I've seen this photo before and doubt it's a Leigh Light.

Aircraft fitted with the light, had a single light mounted, either in a fixed position or in a modified turret. Either way, it was a single light that would produce a single beam, not six.

Also of note: in the photo, the "beams" appear to be trails, as from above mentioned rockets.
Light beams don't diminish or drift across each other's paths.

 

[WATU]

There are a lot of photos around of Liberator GR.V serial FL927/G (G for Guard whilevtge aircraft was on the ground) with lower forward fuselage mounted rockets, Leigh Light and Dumbo radar nose. This was a trials aircraft at the A&AEE and was not representative of equipment fits on operational squadron aircraft.

I have a book somewhere with copies of the CC orders setting out the armament fits for Liberators from Nov 1943. Leigh Light equipped aircraft were armed with depth charges or Mk.24 Fido mines (homing torpedoes).

Thanks Ewen. I do recall the nose-,mounted trial. I would be interested in the book title if you can recall it.

 

[WATU]

I've seen this photo before and doubt it's a Leigh Light.

Aircraft fitted with the light, had a single light mounted, either in a fixed position or in a modified turret. Either way, it was a single light that would produce a single beam, not six.

Also of note: in the photo, the "beams" appear to be trails, as from above mentioned rockets.
Light beams don't diminish or drift across each other's paths.

Echoes my thinking. Was just unsure what a time lapse camera aperture (if such a thing was relevant in this context) might do from a fast-moving aircraft. Alternatively 1.7in flares that the aircraft is leaving behind and wobbling in the slipstream.

 

[GrauGeist]

Echoes my thinking. Was just unsure what a time lapse camera aperture (if such a thing was relevant in this context) might do from a fast-moving aircraft. Alternatively 1.7in flares that the aircraft is leaving behind and wobbling in the slipstream.

1940's camera technology would have been difficult to capture distant detail of the submarine with a slow shutter speed. Any close light source would wash out details further out while creating a blurred image of lighter images.

 

[EwenS]

Thanks Ewen. I do recall the nose-,mounted trial. I would be interested in the book title if you can recall it.

This is it

B24 Liberator in RAF coastal Command service and aircraft of 311(Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF

Consolidated B-24 Liberator is one of airplanes which deserves special attention of aviation historians. B-24s took part in combat actions in all theatres of operations of WWII under quite different s

www.aviationmegastore.com

As well as some history of the Lib in RAF service and brief notes on each CC squadron use, it then has detailed histories of each aircraft used by 311 squadron and appendices giving the appearance and equipment fit of each, down to level of window type, antenna positions, camouflage etc, etc, etc. Huge detail.

The book was published back in 2015 and in a limited print run. While expensive at the time it was nothing like today's asking price. I was even lucky enough to receive a copy signed by one of the authors and a couple of 311 squadron members. And no, it isn't for sale.

The 12 Nov 1943 official CC document was ref CC/S. 7012/2/6/CinC. 1938.

That notes, amongst other things, that due to the changed situation in the U-boat war, 224 had been allocated 6 Leigh Light Liberators and would be brought up to strength on these as more aircraft became available. Further those Liberator Mk.V with fixed RP installations would be returned to SAL for LL conversion. On return to squadrons the RP would have been removed and were to be held in unit stores. The Appendix to that document sets out the various armament fits. Liberators in either Long Range or Very Long Range with LL - 8x250lb DC. At that point it was planned to have 4 Lib squadrons with LL equipped aircraft.

Note most of the RP equipped Libs used a reloadable package in the aft bomb bay. 311 was one squadron using that fit on its GR.V from Feb 1944. LL was not fitted to them. These aircraft had the RP package removed in Dec 1944 / Jan 1945. It then received LL equipped GR.VI from the end of Jan 1945.

Another document Appendix X from RAF in Maritime War Vol IV repeats the above and further notes Lib VI with LL was 8xDC as above or 1xMk.24 mine plus 6xDC.

224 received Liberator GR.V with the later ASG-3 radar and no RP from Dec 1943. It received its first Lib VI with ASG-3 in May 1944 and these gradually replaced the GR.V. By Sept it was 15 GR.VI and 3 GR.V on charge all with ASG-3 radars. The latter were gone by 5 Nov. In late Nov it became the first CC squadron to begin receiving the Lib GR.VIII with the AN/APS-15 3cm Radar which was better for detecting U-boat Schnorkels. By March 1945 it was flying GR.VIII only.

 

[WATU]

This is it

B24 Liberator in RAF coastal Command service and aircraft of 311(Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF

Consolidated B-24 Liberator is one of airplanes which deserves special attention of aviation historians. B-24s took part in combat actions in all theatres of operations of WWII under quite different s

www.aviationmegastore.com

As well as some history of the Lib in RAF service and brief notes on each CC squadron use, it then has detailed histories of each aircraft used by 311 squadron and appendices giving the appearance and equipment fit of each, down to level of window type, antenna positions, camouflage etc, etc, etc. Huge detail.

The book was published back in 2015 and in a limited print run. While expensive at the time it was nothing like today's asking price. I was even lucky enough to receive a copy signed by one of the authors and a couple of 311 squadron members. And no, it isn't for sale.

The 12 Nov 1943 official CC document was ref CC/S. 7012/2/6/CinC. 1938.

That notes, amongst other things, that due to the changed situation in the U-boat war, 224 had been allocated 6 Leigh Light Liberators and would be brought up to strength on these as more aircraft became available. Further those Liberator Mk.V with fixed RP installations would be returned to SAL for LL conversion. On return to squadrons the RP would have been removed and were to be held in unit stores. The Appendix to that document sets out the various armament fits. Liberators in either Long Range or Very Long Range with LL - 8x250lb DC. At that point it was planned to have 4 Lib squadrons with LL equipped aircraft.

Note most of the RP equipped Libs used a reloadable package in the aft bomb bay. 311 was one squadron using that fit on its GR.V from Feb 1944. LL was not fitted to them. These aircraft had the RP package removed in Dec 1944 / Jan 1945. It then received LL equipped GR.VI from the end of Jan 1945.

Another document Appendix X from RAF in Maritime War Vol IV repeats the above and further notes Lib VI with LL was 8xDC as above or 1xMk.24 mine plus 6xDC.

224 received Liberator GR.V with the later ASG-3 radar and no RP from Dec 1943. It received its first Lib VI with ASG-3 in May 1944 and these gradually replaced the GR.V. By Sept it was 15 GR.VI and 3 GR.V on charge all with ASG-3 radars. The latter were gone by 5 Nov. In late Nov it became the first CC squadron to begin receiving the Lib GR.VIII with the AN/APS-15 3cm Radar which was better for detecting U-boat Schnorkels. By March 1945 it was flying GR.VIII only.

Hi Ewen. I do know that book and would like a copy but the only one I found was £80 (or €80). The publishers have a couple of extracts online. I have exchanged notes with one of the authors, Pavel Turk, who was very helpful. I hoped he might know of a secret stash of books in Eastern Europe but no joy.
Is that CC doc at TNA? I have the RAFMW document.
Thanks for the information. Good stuff.
Still very unsure about that image and what was happening.

 

[WARSPITER]

This is conjecture as in a rough guess. Could it be a long exposure shot as the plane turned. Doubtful to me as the sub isn't
in more than one spot.

Fire flares would be dropped as the plane went over but that would be behind.

This should be a shot from a second pass after the kill according to the caption.

 

[WATU]

This is conjecture as in a rough guess. Could it be a long exposure shot as the plane turned. Doubtful to me as the sub isn't
in more than one spot.

Fire flares would be dropped as the plane went over but that would be behind.

This should be a shot from a second pass after the kill according to the caption.

Do you mean flame floats to mark the attack spot? In my comments I was actually talking about the 4in and 1.7in illumination flares that would be dropped during the last mile as the aircraft homed on the U-boat.
I am struggling to make any real sense of what the image is showing.

 

[GrauGeist]

At Uboat.net, they have a photo of a submarine illuminated by a Leigh Light.

The photo was taken during a practice run on a Royal Navy sub, but it shows what a U-Boat should look like when caught in the light.

The Leigh Light - Technical pages - Fighting the U-boats - uboat.net

The U-boat War in World War Two (Kriegsmarine, 1939-1945) and World War One (Kaiserliche Marine, 1914-1918) and the Allied efforts to counter the threat. This section includes over 21.000 Allied Warships and over 11.000 Allied Commanders of WWII, from the US Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian...

uboat.net

 

[WARSPITER]

Do you mean flame floats to mark the attack spot? In my comments I was actually talking about the 4in and 1.7in illumination flares that would be dropped during the last mile as the aircraft homed on the U-boat.
I am struggling to make any real sense of what the image is showing.

According to what I've read the flares mark the position of the attack area. How far around I don't know.

 

[WATU]

According to what I've read the flares mark the position of the attack area. How far around I don't know.

Flame floats would be dropped at night to mark an attack or diving point. In daytime it would be a smoke float and/or a dye marker.
During a night attack by an aircraft without a functioning Leigh Light e.g. a Sunderland there were two possible types of flare illumination.
Three 44in flares would be dropped about a mile from the U-boat or at the same distance the aircraft would start to drop a series of up to 20 short-lived 1.7in flares during the homing run. Trials indicated that both flare types were viable and some pilots were said to prefer flares to the Leigh Light.

 

[WARSPITER]

That's also why they probably aren't anything to do with the photo.

 

[WATU]

The only other picture of a Leigh Light in use that I know of is a static Lib in the beam of a Leigh Light from another static aircraft.

 

[ThomasP]

RAF CC Liberator GR Mk V FL927 with ASV Mk ?(Yaggi aerial type), 8x RP, and Leigh Light

 

[EwenS]

RAF CC Liberator GR Mk V FL927 with ASV Mk ?(Yaggi aerial type), 8x RP, and Leigh Light

View attachment 736384

See my post #4 above.

This was a trials aircraft with the A&AEE from April 1943 until becoming a ground instruction airframe in June 1944. The Dumbo nose radome for a centimetric radar set was for aerodynamic tests only. It did not contain a radar aerial. As I noted, this was not an operational fit.

The Yagi radar aerials on nose and wings and the aft fuselage relate to ASV.II. Those on the fuselage were for the sideways "search" function. Once a target had been detected the aircraft would be turned towards it and the radar switched from the side looking "search" aerials to the Yagi "homing" aerials.

 

[ThomasP]

OOPS! missed the part about the FL927.