Let's Talk Trainbusting

[wuzak]

Thank you.

You are most welcome.

They may not have exploded every time they got hit but it was a very real possibility.

I guess it depends on where the hits were achieved (firebox and smoke box less likely to cause an explosion), and how much pressure the engineer could relieve from the boiler. And also what sort of ammo is being used - high explosive rounds would probably help the process along a bit!

 

[stona]

Colonel William B Colgan:

"Locomotives, whilst varying in weight from large mainline freight and passenger types to small local and yard switch engines, were iron horses. Whether steam or electric they were hard targets. To be claimed destroyed, a loco had to blow or rupture in a cloud of steam (at times with parts flying off) or derail and wreck. An electric loco had to erupt in a display of fire, sparks and smoke, with parts flying, to be claimed. Only close in pin point shooting achieved those results. Sprayed bullets never did."

Which would imply, from a man who was there, that it took some good shooting to ensure a satisfactory "blow".

Eric Hammel

"I turned on my gun switch [he had previously missed with bombs] and made two broadside strafing passes at the steam engine. I estimate that I expended thirty to forty rounds from each of my four guns on each strafing pass. In the dim dawn light my .50 calibre API bullets really flashed brightly when they hit. The strikes caused steam to billow up. I felt relief at being rid of those heavy bombs and elation at having hit the target alone."

That doesn't sound like an explosion either.

Here's one for the fans of the Hellcat in the ETO.

On August 21, 1944, Strafing Flight #63 took off at 13:15 from the deck of the USS Tulagi. Eight planes under flight leader Lt. Cmdr. William F. Bringle, consisted of pilots Ensign William C. McKeever, Ensign John M. Denison, Ensign Charles P. Skelly, Lt. Charles s. Longino, Ensign Lawrence W. Thompson, Lt. John H. Coyne, Ensign Thomas S. Ryan headed on their mission over Southern France.

The eight F6F-5s Hellcats led by Lt. Cmdr. Bringle were assigned to attack barges on the Rhone River. Four were found below Aries tied up at position S-9340. They were first strafed then were bombed with 1000 lb. bombs, which were near misses and a depth bomb exploded on the bow of the largest barge which was 200 feet long. The bow was shattered but did not burn.

After the attack, two planes were detached by the control ship for a special mission. The remaining six headed toward Nimes. On the way they strafed several small groups of motor trucks which were found on the roads. They turned north in the direction of Sainte-Anastasie and strafed and attacked with rockets, 100 motor trucks found in 5 groups along the road.

They went as far north as Uzes, but the weather started to close in and they turned south. Northwest of Nimes they strafed a train and left its locomotive disabled with clouds of steam escaping. In all these attacks, 50 trucks were considered certainly destroyed and 50 more damaged.

My italics, but once again no explosion.

Cheers

Steve

 

[yulzari]

The most effective way of disabling a rail system is by ground sabotage. There you can pick undefended key items such as points, control mechanisms, heavy lifting gear. Basically anything that cannot be swiftly replaced. The best people to do that are railway workers who know what is slow to replace. It might be signalling equipment where no replacement exists off the shelf or rails of unique curvature that must be made in a steel works and transported many miles to the site. Ex 1970/80s Polish railway workers might have an input on what parts they planned to sabotage had the Soviets attacked western europe.

Train busting from the air will disable the locomotive and scald to death the crew but anything up to 20mm cannon causes repairable damage and does little to the rail network itself, except a brief delay on that line. 60lb rocker projectiles will destroy the locomotive and it's load and do no good at all to the track bed but were notoriously inaccurate. For train busting from the air I would prefer a twin 40mm S gun carrier with HE rounds.

There is a further advantage of ground sabotage. It can avoid civilian deaths and injuries. I have known of several British POWs whose greatest fear, and cause of violent death, was random US fighters strafing anything that moved such as POW transports and lines of POWs on foot. The fighters had little chance of telling who was on board a train nor if an organised line of soldiers on a road were POWs or Wermacht. This is in no way pointing a finger at US fighter pilots. It is just that war is a brutal, crude and indiscriminate affair once someone starts it off and we should remember we are talking of actual deaths and horrible injuries not of computer games.

 

[nincomp]

Question.
Are there any records to show how many fighters were severely damaged by their exploding targets? The explosions from the ammunition cars and barges look pretty massive.
Then again, how many pilots would admit to shooting themselves down?

 

[stona]

Question.
Are there any records to show how many fighters were severely damaged by their exploding targets? The explosions from the ammunition cars and barges look pretty massive.
Then again, how many pilots would admit to shooting themselves down?

I doubt it. They would be listed as missing. Serious damage at low altitude would rarely have been survivable.

I agree to some extent with Yulzari. Sabotage, particularly by various French Resistance groups, was very effective in the limited period before D-Day when they had specific objectives. The allied bombing offensive wore the entire infrastructure down in a different way. It too was very effective, but specific and difficult to repair targets (like viaducts) were a difficult proposition even late in the war.

Cheers

Steve

 

[wuzak]

Colonel William B Colgan:

"Locomotives, whilst varying in weight from large mainline freight and passenger types to small local and yard switch engines, were iron horses. Whether steam or electric they were hard targets. To be claimed destroyed, a loco had to blow or rupture in a cloud of steam (at times with parts flying off) or derail and wreck. An electric loco had to erupt in a display of fire, sparks and smoke, with parts flying, to be claimed. Only close in pin point shooting achieved those results. Sprayed bullets never did."

Which would imply, from a man who was there, that it took some good shooting to ensure a satisfactory "blow".

Eric Hammel

"I turned on my gun switch [he had previously missed with bombs] and made two broadside strafing passes at the steam engine. I estimate that I expended thirty to forty rounds from each of my four guns on each strafing pass. In the dim dawn light my .50 calibre API bullets really flashed brightly when they hit. The strikes caused steam to billow up. I felt relief at being rid of those heavy bombs and elation at having hit the target alone."

That doesn't sound like an explosion either.

Here's one for the fans of the Hellcat in the ETO.

On August 21, 1944, Strafing Flight #63 took off at 13:15 from the deck of the USS Tulagi. Eight planes under flight leader Lt. Cmdr. William F. Bringle, consisted of pilots Ensign William C. McKeever, Ensign John M. Denison, Ensign Charles P. Skelly, Lt. Charles s. Longino, Ensign Lawrence W. Thompson, Lt. John H. Coyne, Ensign Thomas S. Ryan headed on their mission over Southern France.

The eight F6F-5s Hellcats led by Lt. Cmdr. Bringle were assigned to attack barges on the Rhone River. Four were found below Aries tied up at position S-9340. They were first strafed then were bombed with 1000 lb. bombs, which were near misses and a depth bomb exploded on the bow of the largest barge which was 200 feet long. The bow was shattered but did not burn.

After the attack, two planes were detached by the control ship for a special mission. The remaining six headed toward Nimes. On the way they strafed several small groups of motor trucks which were found on the roads. They turned north in the direction of Sainte-Anastasie and strafed and attacked with rockets, 100 motor trucks found in 5 groups along the road.

They went as far north as Uzes, but the weather started to close in and they turned south. Northwest of Nimes they strafed a train and left its locomotive disabled with clouds of steam escaping. In all these attacks, 50 trucks were considered certainly destroyed and 50 more damaged.

My italics, but once again no explosion.

Cheers

Steve

No, they don't always explode.

But equally, I doubt they are easy to fix.

 

[gjs238]

I wonder how much of the clouds of steam escaping are from the engineer fireman venting steam vs attack damage.

 

[bobbysocks]

a story i heard was that the germans had their boilers set up so that they could slide an old unit out and a new one in so that the down time was cut drastically. dont know if there was any truth to that but its what i heard from an old vet.

 

[Shortround6]

A lot depends on the exact model engine, availability of cranes and how much "stuff" was already mounted on the "spare" boilers.

The middle dome on the locomotive above was the sand dome to spread sand on the track in front of the drivers. other piping can include water injectors, feed water heaters ( the drum in front of the stack) air lines (tank under running board, steam driven compressor on the other side of the engine?) steam electrical generator for lights and so on.

If you have a "complete" spare boiler fully equipped and a crane it may work. If you have to transfer a lot of the 'auxiliaries/accessories' it may be a long process, having fully equipped spare boilers hanging around just were you need them can get VERY expensive.

 

[bobbysocks]

how "expensive" is it if the wheels of the war machine grind to a halt? i think that would be an expense high command would gladly absorb.

 

[wuzak]

If you have a "complete" spare boiler fully equipped and a crane it may work. If you have to transfer a lot of the 'auxiliaries/accessories' it may be a long process, having fully equipped spare boilers hanging around just were you need them can get VERY expensive.

Assuming that nothing else on the loco is damaged - like the cylinders or wheels.

 

[Shortround6]

how "expensive" is it if the wheels of the war machine grind to a halt? i think that would be an expense high command would gladly absorb.

How much money would it cost to build the rest of the locomotive and have another engine?

Once you have a "quick change" boiler, all you need is the frame, cylinders, rods, wheel sets and cab. Having 1/2s of a locomotives sitting around doing nothing in various places for weeks/months on end is a luxury the high command cannot afford.

Considering that there were dozens of different locomotive designs of German and French origin, all requiring different boilers, stockpiling spare boilers doesn't really sound like a good idea.

 

[parsifal]

A shot of an aerial attack underway. Planes from the USS Intrepid November 1950, attacking the road and rail bridges at the Yalu River. The road spans are already down, but the rail spans are yet to be hit.

 

[parsifal]

This next shot is from ac of the Valley forge, hitting a train with Napalm tockets, showing just how devastating they could be at times

 

[parsifal]

Another shot in 1950, of yet another rail bridge attack at a place called the kum river" ive never heard of it. It looks like the aircraft are attempting to blow the bridge with the train crossing the bridge. They look to be having some success.....