Google armoured trains.
Soviet: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m199/Von_poop/album 2/sovtrain.jpg
Let's Talk Trainbusting
- Thread starter Conslaw
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Google armoured trains.
Soviet: http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m199/Von_poop/album 2/sovtrain.jpg
wuzak
Captain
When you say your father was shot down and then rescued, does that mean his #3 landed and picked your father up?
model299
Airman 1st Class
Check out this video on youtube:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OSb0kHn_RU
it's from an October '43 newsreel. While it does not depict anti-aircraft operations, it does give you an idea about the equipment.
I've seen pictures of German locomotives that were both entirely enclosed, and only shielded with armor plate on the side, that being the preferred angle of attack if allied gun camera footage is to be believed. I would have to believe a totally enclosed loco is less efficient and much heavier than a standard one. That means it's much harder on the tracks and bridges than usual. I remember years ago talking to an old train man from the steam era. He told me that steam locos were MUCH harder on tracks and bridges than diesel units. You'd think a fully enclosed unit would be even worse.
I wonder, General Motors F1 "covered wagon" diesels were coming online during the war. Did the Germans have anything comparable?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OSb0kHn_RU
it's from an October '43 newsreel. While it does not depict anti-aircraft operations, it does give you an idea about the equipment.
I've seen pictures of German locomotives that were both entirely enclosed, and only shielded with armor plate on the side, that being the preferred angle of attack if allied gun camera footage is to be believed. I would have to believe a totally enclosed loco is less efficient and much heavier than a standard one. That means it's much harder on the tracks and bridges than usual. I remember years ago talking to an old train man from the steam era. He told me that steam locos were MUCH harder on tracks and bridges than diesel units. You'd think a fully enclosed unit would be even worse.
I wonder, General Motors F1 "covered wagon" diesels were coming online during the war. Did the Germans have anything comparable?
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- Thread starter
- #24
Conslaw
Senior Airman
Germany was self-sufficient in coal, but had few oil resources; therefore, running trains on coal avoided putting pressure on already meager oil stock. In the 1940's the United States was a net oil exporter. In fact, gasoline rationing was put in place in the U.S. not because of inadequate supplies of oil/gasoline, but because of a shortage of rubber/tires.
Speaking of diesel trains, if you are ever in Chicago, go to the Museum of Science and Industry. Even if you don't have time to check out the museum, in the Museum's entryway, before you have to pay, there is the Burlington Zephyr streamliner train which set a Denver/Chicago record in 1934. (You have to pay extra to tour the train, but it is worth it.) As diesel trains matured it was often found that the added body work of the streamliners made the engines harder to maintain, and the difference wasn't made up for by aerodynamic benefits. It's a shame because those first generation streamliners were really neat looking. One full wing of the museum is devoted to transportation with several neat old steam engines. They have a Ju-87 Stuka and a Spitfire hanging from the ceiling. The coolest thing of all: they have a genuine U-Boat - and you can tour it. U-505 was captured intact on the high seas in 1944. Sorry for the off-topic diversion, folks.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Not true. The pressures of the war meant there were going to be severe gas rationing for the civilians.
Slightly off topic but it is difficult to separate rail traffic from other transport infrastructure. For example, a lot of materiel was (and still is in much of mainland Europe) moved via inland waterways.
These too became an important target. Not just the barges themselves but flights of locks, aqueducts etc. If your French allies can blow one lock gate nothing is going to move up that canal until it is repaired.
Cheers
Steve
These too became an important target. Not just the barges themselves but flights of locks, aqueducts etc. If your French allies can blow one lock gate nothing is going to move up that canal until it is repaired.
Cheers
Steve
drgondog
Major
Yes Wusak - I posted pics here of the first Piggy Back Rescue...
My father was leading the group at head of 354FS, got hit after telling squadron to stay up while checked out the flak - he was hit by a burst of 20mm over the M/Y, on fire and Split S to get on ground (he never bailed out in either WWII or Korea). Priest landed about 800 yards in a wheat field French farmers were still cutting, taxied back to a point where he could take off into the wind as my father, out of shape, was huffing from his ship to Priest's. He ordered Priest to "go Home" - Priest refused and threw his chute on the ground. Dad hopped in and the rest is history - except that Priest was sure he would be court matrialed for disobeying a direct order in combat.
Instead Doolittle awarded him the DSC and told him (and rest of 8th FC) "don't do This again"
Here is one of them. My father sat in seat and controlled rudder and landing gear, Priest (6'-2") sat on his lap after tossing his parachute - and controlled stick and throttle.
Attachments
![354 Priest and Marshall_18Aug1944 Rescue [marshall].jpg](/forum/data/attachments/209/209037-f20ffcde1fe21eef6a271134c22cb7b6.jpg)
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drgondog
Major
I have re-printed a detailed letter to me from Royce which is far more detailed than other historical recounts in context of the tfive minutes actually on the ground while two German trucks and staff car were roaring off the road about about a mile away.
The rest of Red Flight orbited for a a bit then swooped down on the Germans and shot hell out of the vehicles and troops - but they didn't get them all as several were shooting from below as they lifted over a haystack array next to a drainage ditch..
The rest of Red Flight orbited for a a bit then swooped down on the Germans and shot hell out of the vehicles and troops - but they didn't get them all as several were shooting from below as they lifted over a haystack array next to a drainage ditch..
drgondog
Major
The consistent high value target is the locomotive
The most effective weapon considering consistent delivery, lethality and volume is the 20mm.
wuzak
Captain
Thanks Bill, I hadn't seen that before.
wuzak
Captain
Since the boiler is under high pressure, hitting it will more than just rupture steam tubes
Some screen captures from
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv8rFPLN_Fg
They don't look very repairable to me. You can see bits of the locos being launched well into the air.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Wuzak, those are just cherry picked examples of an infrequent event. Most of the time, the boilers didnt explode like that.
wuzak
Captain
syscom3
Pacific Historian
If they did, there would have been a lot more of the gun camera footage that would have been preserved. As it was, it was usually just some holes made in the engine with steam escaping. Nothing dramatic.
Those engines were made of some tough iron and steel.
wuzak
Captain
One has nothing to do with the other.
You can show gun camer footage of this?
Tough iron and steel subject to (for the time) high temperatures and high pressure.
Shortround6
Major General
There are darn few steam tubes in a railroad locomotive. Their boilers are different than marine boilers. They are fire tube boilers. They consist of a large pressure vessel with a number of tubes running through them that carry hot gases from the fire box to the front of the boiler casing (smoke box) and then out the stack. They do often have small steam tubes inside either the fire tubes or smoke box as super heaters.
They can fail in quite a catastrophic fashion as the outer Boiler jacket or surface is under around 185-250 pounds per square inch pressure. IF the boiler outer jacket is damaged it can ( but not must) start to tear or split.
Most marine boilers are the opposite construction. a bunch of tubes containing water suspended in a "container" of hot gases at low pressure, piercing the outer jacket lets some of the hot gas out but not any steam unless the projectile gets a little further inside.
Obviously both have steam fittings, connections or piping in exposed positions in addition to the the boiler.
They can fail in quite a catastrophic fashion as the outer Boiler jacket or surface is under around 185-250 pounds per square inch pressure. IF the boiler outer jacket is damaged it can ( but not must) start to tear or split.
Most marine boilers are the opposite construction. a bunch of tubes containing water suspended in a "container" of hot gases at low pressure, piercing the outer jacket lets some of the hot gas out but not any steam unless the projectile gets a little further inside.
Obviously both have steam fittings, connections or piping in exposed positions in addition to the the boiler.
wuzak
Captain
Shortround6
Major General
Thank you.
in the first photograph the paint is a nice color code.
Yellow is for the fire/hot gases, Blue is for the water and white is for the steam.
A boiler in 1850 is certainly made of poorer stuff than one made in the 1920s/30s but then the boiler pressure was probably under 90lbs. perhaps under 60lbs.
Just google boiler explosion
They may not have exploded every time they got hit but it was a very real possibility.
in the first photograph the paint is a nice color code.
Yellow is for the fire/hot gases, Blue is for the water and white is for the steam.
A boiler in 1850 is certainly made of poorer stuff than one made in the 1920s/30s but then the boiler pressure was probably under 90lbs. perhaps under 60lbs.
Just google boiler explosion
They may not have exploded every time they got hit but it was a very real possibility.
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wuzak
Captain
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTaddev6KQ
In that clip they state that often the engineer will release steam from teh boiler to prevent a catastrophic explosion
In that one and the following ones you can sometime see a lot of steam coming out before the loco is hit.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2hZHWpmsFw
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT4P9Lbl0E0
I took some screenshots of that last video of one train blowing up
See the chunks of metal flying past the plane?
