Looking for info on a dogfight over Berlin, 1945

[Fruitdispenser]

Here it says that there was a dogfight over Berlin in 24-april-1945 in which JG-11 fought against Yak's, P-51's and Spitfires
Here, if you crtl+F "24.04.1945" you find KIA's in and near Berlin from 1./JG-11, so I presume the aforementioned dogfight was between 1./JG 11 and Allied forces

Here, if you crtl+F "24 April, 1945", you find that 'Kleemann, Willi' fought against A P-51, A Spitfire and A Yak, sourced by a 'L. Wiegels'

USAAF databases don't show operations near Berlin, so Mustang and Spitfire must be either RAF or Soviet.

John Foreman's day to day operations for 24th April 1945 says there were no claims or losses for RAF Spitfires or Mustangs near Berlin, that day, so RAF is discarded, too.

Yaks are Soviet, not Polish, because there aren't claims in 24-april-1945 by Yaks here
Lotnictwo ludowego Wojska Polskiego 1943-1945

Where could I find clues on the identity of Allied squadrons that could have participated in this dogfight?

Obs: notice how here it says that some parts of I./JG 11 operated from a street in the city

Thanks!

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

I wrote about this 24 April 1945 combat in an article for a Mortons magazine a few years ago:

"Meanwhile, the rest of I./J.G. 11 was based in rather more comfortable circumstances, at Rechlin-Lärz to the north-west of Berlin. From there it flew over the city on at least three occasions, beginning at 05:40. Entries in logbooks note regular encounters with Yak-9s from the Soviet air umbrella. Emphasising the desperateness of the situation was an escort mission flown in the late afternoon. Contact had been made with Yak-9s over the German capital, but as it returned the Gruppe was disastrously ambushed by Royal Air Force Spitfires near its base. Responsible was No. 130 Squadron, which claimed the destruction of two FW 190s and a Bf 109, along with an FW 190 and a Bf 109 damaged. Paul Berndt was one of the German pilots on the receiving end:

'Back at Rechlin I lowered the flaps and landing gear for landing when I was warned by the Bodenstelle: 'Indians over our garden fence!' I looked back and saw a Spitfire with a red nose directly behind me. The guy hit me with the full load – shot up my flap motor, undercarriage motor, and all of this in the curve at 250 km/h. It was not possible to climb and gain height to bail out, and belly-landing was also out of the question because the undercarriage legs no longer retracted. My wingman, Oblt. Spangenberg – a former Zerstörer pilot – although barely hit –quickly flew away from the airfield, and returned home later with his parachute under his arm.'​

Bernd managed to land safely, but his FW 190 was in a bad way: "Our ground personnel counted 65 hits in my aircraft." This I./J.G. 11 mission, with its encounter with two different Allied air forces, showed just how difficult the situation now was for the Luftwaffe. The pilots were not safe anywhere."

There was also a I./J.G. 11 detachment at Tempelhof on that morning, which transferred to Gatow during the day. It lost two aircraft in combat with Soviet aircraft, and another during an evacuation flight from Gatow to the west.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

 

[Mike Williams]

From No. 130 Squadron's Operations Record Book (Spitfire XIV)

B.118 (Celle) April 1945

F/Lt Samouelle led 6 aircraft on an intended armed recce of Pritzwalk/Neustadt, taking off at 06.25. 25 minutes later a FW 190 crossed just above the section and the enemy was chased to Neustadt aerodrome where other FW.190s were orbitting. The Spitfires sailed in and destroyed 3 (F/Lt. Samouelle, F/Lt Bruce and F/Sgt Woodman) and damaged 2 (F/Lt Samouelle and F/Lt Corbett). On the way back to base, 4 MET were damaged. A good start to the day's flying. Meanwhile, S/L Wooley, leading six aircraft on a recce to Wismar, sighted a Me.108 at 0 feet near Wismar. S/L Wooley destroyed this. W/O Coverdale destroyed a lone FW.190 near Huginow at 07/45 hours. 4 locos, 4 rail trucks and 2 MET damaged filled out a very useful score. A score of 5-0-2 enemy aircraft before breakfast was particularly brilliant. Since the Hun seemed to be unusually active, a 12 aircraft sweep of Pritzwalk was carried out between 10.00 and 11.25, but this was unproductive. 3 Spitfires made an armed recce of Wismar and Lubeck. 2 MET being destroyed and 11 damaged. At the same time (13.30), 6 more aircraft wrought havoc among a convoy of 30 MET, destroying 9 and damaging 8. Four more aircraft took off at 16.25 to the same area, and returned with a score of 11 MET and 1 loco damaged. On the last show of the day (18:55 to 20/25), S/L Wooley led 8 aircraft on a sweep of Kyritz/Malchew. Near Nevendorf, a single Me.109 was sighted and destroyed by F/Lt Stowe and F/Lt Bruce (shared). Later, several FW.190's were seen trying to land at Rechlin aerodrome, and these were attacked with good effect, two being destroyed (F/Lt Stowe and F/Lt Sibeth) and two damaged (F/Lt Sibeth and F/O Martens). There was no loss on our side.

As to the destroyed claims at Rechlin mentioned above:

F/Lt W. N. Stowe of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

I was leading Blue Section at 1935 hrs we were 6000' West of RECHLIN Airfield when I saw 2 E/A crossing over the 'drome heading N.E. The Section started to attack these when I observed three or four F.W. 190's with wheels down about to land. I went for these and closed in on the last one firing from dead astern. I just had time to observe strikes and a big flash from the tail of the E/A.I was closing so fast I had to pull away. I did not see the E/A crash but Sgt Lewis who was orbiting the airfield saw the E/A which I had fired at, go in, crash, and catch fire.

Sgt Lewis says: I saw the E/A fired at by F/Lt Stowe go into the 'drome and catch fire.

F/Lt Sibeth of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

I was flying Blue 3 and at 1920 Blue I reported E/A going across the aerodrome at RECHLIN on mthe South shore of MURITZ Sea. Blue I went down with the Section. I picked out M.E.109 and followed round in its land hand circuit. I saw it firing at Blue I so I dived on it and attacked from 250 yards in a curne of pursuit, angle off 30 degrees. I hit his left wing, half way along it. I did a very steep turn inside me and I lost sight of him. I claim the E/A damaged.

I went on round the circuit after another A/C which was a F.W.190. It had its wheels down and was at 200' going in to land. When he saw me he made off towards the village of MIROW and I chased him at varying ranges as the E/A was weaving and opening and cutting his throttle. The angle of attack was about 10 degrees. I saw strikes all round the fuselage. I used up all my ammunition so I left him and pulled up over the top of him. I did not see him go in but Red Section who were about saw it go in and was burning on the ground. I claim the first E/A damaged and the second Destroyed. S/Ldr Wooley confirms the second one. He says I saw an A/C burning on the ground near the village of MIROW. This was at the time of F/Lt Sibeth's attack.

More claims from No. 130 Squadron for 24 April 1945 as follows:

F/Lt C. J. Samouelle of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

I was leading Yellow section of 130 Squadron and we were at 7,000 ft when Yellow 3 (F/Sgt Woodman) reported an A/C at 9 o'clock to us. We were flying East at the time. I immediately gave chase and we steadily overhauled the E/A which was diving towards the aerodrome at NEUSTADT. Just as we approached the A/D F/Sgt Woodman got within range and gave the E/A a short burst. It rolled over to starboard and crashed into a field. I also saw F/L Bruce (Yellow 5) attack a FW 190 on my starboard side. There was a great red flash from the E/A and the pilot baled out. This A/C crashed into a field S.E. of the aerodrome.

By this time there were two or three FW 190's round the circuit I saw one with wheels down at about 1,000 ft going round the circuit. I closed in to about 300 yds and just as the E/A got its wheels up I opened fire from dead astern. I got strikes all over the rear of the fuselage and the E/A crashed immediately into a village N.W. of the aerodrome.

I broke to port and saw another 190 south of the aerodrome at about 200 ft coming in to land. I pulled round and attacked from the starboard quarter. I saw strikes on the starboard wing.The E/A continued to fly on a straight course with wheels and flaps down. I continued to hit him and the E/A went in to land with white smoke pouring out of the starboard wing, at the end of his run he went slowly up on his nose.

I claim the first E/A destroyed and the second damaged.

F/L Corbett states: I saw the A/C shot down by F/L Samouelle.I saw it crash into a house in the village and about 10 mins. later there was a big explosion from the same spot. I also saw F/L Samouelle firing at the second one.

F/Sgt B. W. Woodman of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

I was Yellow 3 and was with my section on an armed recce. We were flying at 6,000 ft in an easterly direction and when near PRITZWALK I sighted a FW 190, 500 ft above going N.W. towards NEUSTADT. I called up my leader but as he did not receive me I broke over the top of him to attract his attention. As I finished my break I saw the E/A about a mile ahead diving. I closed to within 100 yds of him and then pulled out to one side to make certain of the E/A's identity. I saw the German markings. The German pilot then saw me for the first time and started a slow break to port. I pulled in behind him and opened fire. As a result of my first burst I saw strikes on the wing roots and fuselage. I missed with my second burst, but with my third burst I clobbered him all over the cockpit and the fuselage. The coop top came off and the E/A rolled to port. As I broke away from him I saw a parachute open about 50 ft from the ground. The E/A crashed into a wood in the S.W. corner of the airfield and it caught fire.

I claim this E/A destroyed.

F/Lt Samouelle confirms this claim, he states:- Just as I got to the aerodrome I saw F/Sgt Woodman get within range of E/A and after he had fired the E/A crashed into the S.W. corner of the aerodrome.

F/Lt Bruce of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

My section was on an armed recce in the PLITZ WALK area and we were at 7,000 ft going East when Yellow 3 (F/Sgt Woodman) reported a F.W. 190 at 7,500 ft going N.E.As we approached the aerodrome I saw another F.W. 190 at a 1,000 ft with its wheels down about to make its approach and land. I pulled up to the right to lose speed and then came down behind the e/a opening fire at 300 yds, at 30 degrees off. I saw strikes on the fuselage near the cockpit. The e/a had retracted his undercarriage and turned to port. I closed to 50 yds and saw him jettison his hood. He turned tightly across me. I fired again as he crossed me and I saw more strikes on the starboard wing. The e/a slowly rolled on its back and went down vertically to about 500 ft at which height the pilot bailed out. The A/C went down and crashed about 2 miles from the A/D.

I claim this E/A destroyed.

F/LT Samouelle confirms the claim. He says: I saw the e/a claimed by F/LT Bruce crash into a field on the edge of a wood on the South East side of the Aerodrome. There was a big red flash as F/LT Bruce attacked and the pilot bailed out.

W/O R. E. Coverdale of 130 Squadron recorded in his Combat Report for 24 April, 1945:

I was flying Red 6 and we were on an armed recce in the LUBECK - WISMAR area. At about 17.35 we were at 6,000 ft when I saw a F.W. 190 at 1,000 ft going West near HAGENOW. It was first attacked by Red 3 (F/O Trevarrow) and Red 5 W/O Miller without result. The e/a had gone down to about 50 ft when Red 5 broke away and the e/a broke right. I fired at once from about 150 yds full deflection and I saw strikes on the wing roots and cockpit. The e/a turned and went down in a gradual dive. I fired at him again as he went down and I saw him crash into a field. I claim this e/a destroyed.

W/O Miller confirms the claim: He says: I saw W/O Coverdale firing full deflection. I saw the e/a crash into a field and turn over on it side.

Anyone have a listing of German losses for 24 April 1945 in the area of operations discussed above? I see Bernt and Spangenberg mentioned above. Also :
From a link in the initial posting:
Uffz. KLEEMANN, Willi, 24.04.1945 Berlin Tempelhof, 1./JG 11, Luftkampf
Uffz. KRENTZ, Karl, 24.04.1945 Berlin 1./JG 11, Luftkampf
Uffz. LÜTZOW, Fritz, 24.04.1945 Raum Gatow, 1./JG 11, Luftkampf
Fw. POLLACK, 24.04.1945 Oranienburg, 1./JG 11, Luftkampf
Lt. SCHLEGEL, Eberhard, 24.04.1945 Lärz, 1./JG 11, unbekannte Ursache
Ofhr. STADLER, 24.04.1945 Strausberg, 1./JG 11, Luftkampf vermisst

Edit:
Prein & Rodeike also list these JG 11 losses from 24 April 45:
Fw. Linder, verw. Motorbrand, über Parchim
Lt. Eberhard Schlegel, +, Ursache unbekannt, Lärz, 100%
Uffz, Fritz Lützow, +, Überführungsflug, Luftkampf, Raum Gatow, 100%
Olt. Dietmar Spangenberg, -, Luftkampf Spitfire, Raum Lärz, 100%
Fw. Paul Berndt, -, bei Landung von Spitfires beschossen Bruchlandung, Lärz

 

[Crimea_River]

Great info guys.

 

[Mike Williams]

From Jagdeschwader I und II, Prein and Rodeike:

Von Lärz und Neuruppin aus flogen die Reste des Jg 11 erneut Einsätze über dem Kampfraum Berlin, wieder heiss es, Begleitschutz und freie Jagd zu fliegen und darüber hinaud Einsätze zur Gewaltaufklärung, nachdem dir Führungsstellen der Luftwaffe im norodostdeutschen Raum den Überblick über das Kampfgeschehen um Berlin zusehends verloren. Wiederholt kam es dabei zu Zusammenstössen mit russischen Fliegerverbände, in deren Verlauf das JG 11 eine Reihe von Verlusten hinnehmen musste - fünf Gefallene bzw, Vermisste waren an diesem Tage zu beklagen. In einem Luftkampof bei Oranienburg wurden Fw. Pollock un ein namentlich nich bekannter Unteroffizier tödlich abgeschossen, während Lt. Eberhard Schlegel aus unbekanntner Ursache nicht zurückkehrte und als vermisst gemeldet werden musste. Ofhr. Stadler nach einem Luftkampf im Raume Strausberg vermisst, ebsenso wie Uffz. Fritz Lützow, der nach einem Überführungsflug von Gatow nach Lärz nicht an seinem Bestimmungsort eintraf und seither als vermisst gilt. Fw. Lindner wurde verletzt, als seine Focke Wulf wegen eines Motobrands nach dem Start in Parchim abstürzte. Dagegen ist über Erfolge des JG 11 an diesem Tage nicht bekannt. Am frühen Abend erschienen überraschend von Westen her einige Spitfires über Lärz, die auf eine gerade hereinlandende Rotte der 1./JG 11 stiessen - daren erinnert sich deren Rottenführer Paul Berndt.



Google translate: From Lärz and Neuruppin, the remnants of JG 11 flew again missions over the battle area of Berlin, again it was time to fly escorts and free hunting and, above all, missions to investigate violence, after you had an overview of the fighting around Berlin in the air force command posts in the north-east of Germany visibly lost. There were repeated clashes with Russian aviation associations in the course of which JG 11 suffered a number of losses - five dead or missing were to be lamented on that day. In an air battle near Oranienburg, Fw. Pollock and a non-commissioned officer whose name was not known were fatally shot down, while Lt. Eberhard Schlegel did not return for unknown reasons and had to be reported missing. Ofhr. Stadler went missing after an aerial battle in the Strausberg area, as well as Uffz. Fritz Lützow, who did not arrive at his destination after a flight from Gatow to Lärz and has been missing since then. Fw. Lindner was injured when his Focke Wulf crashed due to an engine fire after the start in Parchim. On the other hand, it is not known about the successes of JG 11 that day. In the early evening some Spitfires appeared surprisingly from the west over Lärz, who came across a squad of 1./JG 11 just landing in – (see Andrew's account posted above)

 

[Fruitdispenser]

So, the Yak and Spitfire encounters were actually separated events. And it seems there weren't Mustangs involved.
Andrew, tangentially related, can I ask you which, if any, detachments of I./JG11 operated from the streets of Berlin?

Thanks for all the great info, guys!!!

 

[Steve Hnz]

In Johnny Johnson's book "Wing Leader" he mentions an armed reconnaissance over Berlin toward the end of the war. It is years since I read it & I don't know where mine is just now but I wonder if 130 squadron mentioned was in his wing & it was the same incident mentioned above by Mike Williams. He didn't, as I recall, mention meeting any Luftwaffe units but did meet a Red Air Force formation & from memory they flew around each other regarding the other with curiosity before continuing on their way.

 

[Fruitdispenser]

In Johnny Johnson's book "Wing Leader" he mentions an armed reconnaissance over Berlin toward the end of the war. It is years since I read it & I don't know where mine is just now but I wonder if 130 squadron mentioned was in his wing & it was the same incident mentioned above by Mike Williams. He didn't, as I recall, mention meeting any Luftwaffe units but did meet a Red Air Force formation & from memory they flew around each other regarding the other with curiosity before continuing on their way.

I remember reading about Belgian Spitfires meeting some Soviet Yaks over Berlin, too, near that date.
What I'm actually trying to find if there was a point in which Soviets and Western Allied (air)forces fought together, as the allies they were, in late war. Besides Frantic/Titanic I've read about these not so friendly incidents
1. P-51's of 359th FG chasing some Yak-9's
2. Kozhedub allegedly fighting some P-51's
3. Erich Hartmann made Soviet and WAllies fight eachother
4. And Nis, of course
but I haven't found incidents in which they together fought against Axis forces

 

[nuuumannn]

can I ask you which, if any, detachments of I./JG11 operated from the streets of Berlin?

Dunno if the unit operated from airfields that were streets in Berlin; the only such airfield conversion I am aware of in the city itself is the use of the westernmost section of the East-West Axis (today known as the Strasse des 17 Juni) between the Siegesaulle and the Brandenburg Gate, which was around 1700 metres of useable strip. Speer's lamps that lined the avenue were removed - much to his protestations and it was actually used in the closing stages of the fall of the city. Image of the road as it is today (well, 2019 when international travel was a thing) taken from atop the Siegesaulle looking toward the Brandenburg Gate in the distance.

Berlin Tour 11

This strip was put into use as an airfield because most of Berlin's airfields were under threat, if not captured already, by the Soviets - Gatow and Staaken to the east, Adlershof to the north and Johannisthal to the south, although Tempelhof, to the immediate south of the city was also under threat.

Andrew A, in his article segment above states the unit was based at Tempelhof and Gatow. The former was in use as a manufacturing facility by the Weser Fluzeugbau for the manufacture of Ju 87s and Fw 190s.

 

[Fruitdispenser]

Thanks for the answer!

 

[GrauGeist]

The name of the "Strausse" in Berlin used as an airstrip was Charlottenburger Chausee.

 

[nuuumannn]

The name of the "Strasse" in Berlin used as an airstrip was Charlottenburger Chausee.

Indeed it was, or at least a half of it, and how it is today is entirely because of Albert Speer. Initially the Chausee was a two-lane road, but in 1939 Speer had it widened into a boulevard suitable for parades, with a saluting base at it's western end, where it became Adolf Hitlerplatz, and he had the Siegesaulle moved from its original location in front of the Reichstag to its current location (and made it taller), creating the roundabout dividing the avenue into two, named the Grosser Stern - and he had his special lamps he designed lining the boulevard, some of which can be found around the city to this day.

A Speer lamp on the Kaiserdamm, but intersecting with what was Adolf Hitlerplatz, now Theodore Heussplatz. The picture is distorted because it's taken out a car window.

Europe 410

This was all for Hitler's 50th birthday in April 1939, but Speer had grander plans for the area - the development of Charlottenburger Chausee was to be the main part of the East-West Axis (Ost-west Achse) that circumvents the great North-South Axis which was to be the centre piece of Welthauptstadt Germania - the ambitious Reich redevelopment plan. Converting the Chausee for Hitler's birthday and moving the Siegesaulle was the first step in this, with work begun on digging tunnels for the new underground station that ran in front of the Reichstag.

This is a picture of a model that Speer had made of Germania, and in case you are interested, the numbers are as follows; the massive Volkshalle at 1, the Reichstag at 2, the East-West Axis (the former Charlottenburger Chausee) at 3, with the Siegesaulle in the Grosser Stern at the centre of the diagonal intersecting roads running through the Tiergarten, the Brandenburg Gate at 4, Unter den Linden at 5, the Propaganda Ministry at 6, the Reichs Chancellery at 7, Potsdamerplatz at 8, the Bendlerblock (the OKW der Wehrmacht - military headquarters) at 9, the Reichs Luftfahrt Ministerium at 10, the Reich Security Main Office at 11, the former Anhalter Banhof at 12, the North-South Axis at 13, the Triumphal Arch at 14 and Tempelhof Aerodrome at 15.

Berlin Tour 22

In case anyone's interested, these images come from a self guided walking tour of the heart of Berlin I did in 2019, images here, with captions.

Berlin 101 | Flickr

 

[Mike Williams]

125 Wing was comprised of 41, 130 & 350 Squadrons (Spitfire XIV) and led by Group Captain J. E. Johnson from March – May 1945.

350 (Belgian) Squadron Operations Record Book: Spitfire XIV, B.118 Celle, 24 April 1945. … "This successful operation was followed by a Wing Sweep in which we met for the first time Yaks and Stormovicks aeroplanes. (These two facts "Jamming of the railway system South Est of Pritzwalk and the meeting of British and Russian air patrols were reported in a B.B.C. broadcast")

The Squadron was led by the Group Captain Johnny Johnson and our new Commanding Officer S/Ldr. Walmsley just arrived 130 Squadron makes it his first show with us. In the afternoon P/O. Watkins and F/O. Leckhoudt shared the destruction of a HE.111. In the evening show S/Ldr Walmsley got a FW.190 destroyed and F/Lt De Patoul got another probable."

Shores and Thomas in 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol 3, place this meeting with the Red Air Force as taking place on 23 April: "At 1745 130 Squadron's Spitfire XIV's commenced an evening patrol by six aircraft over the Neustadt-Pritwalk area, where rail traffic was strafed. Two BF 108 liaison aircraft were then spotted over Parchim airfield, and both were claimed shot down by Ft Lt Harry Walmsley. Earlier in the day Grp Cpt Johnnie Johnson had led this unit, accompanied by 41 Squadron with Wg Cdr George Keefer in the lead over the Elbe to join the Red Air Force in attacking the German retreat before the Soviet forces. This was the first contact for RAF fighters with the Russian counterparts."

There is some confusion for me regarding the dates here as 350's Operations Record Book Form 540 has the meeting with the Red Air force on the 24th while their Form 541 Record of Events shows the Elbe Patrols occurring on the 23rd. 41 Squadron's Form 541 also has the Elbe patrols on the 23rd.

Does anyone have Johnson's account readily at hand. It appears my book is buried somewhere at the moment.

 

[Crimea_River]

I just read the account in Wing Leader and no date is given.

 

[Fruitdispenser]

I can't seem to find info on nationalarchives.gov.uk for 130 and 41 Squadrons in 23 and 24 April, related to Elbe patrols. Just the northern Germany patrols

Edit: I guess this may be related
RAFCommands Archive :: No 41 Sqns brush with the VVS