Lorraine 14A Antares and Mitsubishi Kinsei?

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Hardrada55, Feb 13, 2016.

  1. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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    What is the relationship, if any at all, between the French Lorraine 14A Antares engine and the Mitsubishi Kinsei type 2? They both have 140mm bore and 150mm stroke, both 1970ci. The Antares dates from 1928, the Kinsei from 1934. The 14A is 500hp at 1900rpm and 5:1 compression ratio, the first Kinsei was 680hp at 2100rpm and 5.3:1 compression ratio. Antares weight was 445kg, Kinsei was 510kg.
     
  2. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a good question, Hardrada55, but Mitsubishi had nothing to do with Lorraine but Hispano as a licensed manufacturer.
     
  3. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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    I would like to compare a picture of the Lorraine to a picture of the Kinsei.
     
  4. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Hardrada55 but not my job.
     
  5. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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    Oh, no, I really wasn't suggesting that you do that...I was just expressing a desire to see if there really are any design features shared by the Lorraine Antares and the Kinsei that might be revealed by comparing pictures of the two engines. I despair at ever finding a good picture of the Lorraine Antares. While I was suggesting that Japanese engine designers may possibly have based Kinsei on the Lorraine, they also had exposure to all the best designs of the world in addition to their own considerable talents and most assuredly incorporated other foreign features along with their own original ideas, in the Kinsei, turning it into the superior, reliable aircraft engine that it certainly was.
     
  6. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    #6 Shinpachi, Feb 14, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2016
    Kinsei model 2 was involved in Mitsubishi project A4 to challenge the first air-cooled double-row radial engine with its all knowledge, experience and technical advice given by Hispano. The bore/stroke 140/150 was one of the most familiar ones for Mitsubishi at the time.

    Corrected "the first air-cooled radial engine" to "the first air-cooled double-row radial engine"
     
  7. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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    What other Mitsubishi engines used 140mm bore and 150mm stroke?
     
  8. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    They were Mitsubishi Type Hi (Hi for Hispano) 300HP and 450HP.

    This is Kinsei Model 2.
    All exhaust tubes were placed toward the front.
    I am interested in the Lorraine 14A Antares pictures if available to compare.

    Kinsei_Mod_2.JPG
     
  9. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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  10. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    You are welcome, Hardrada55.
    The result of project A4 was not satisfactory but led to the future success in project A8, by adopting the western technologies positively.
     
  11. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    This thread has reminded me that I have ever researched History of Lorraine engines 10 years before.
    This is Lorraine 14Ac Antares.

    Lorraine_14_Ac_Antares.JPG
     
  12. Hardrada55

    Hardrada55 Member

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    Thank you! Very different, except for swept volume.
     
  13. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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  14. Bretoal2

    Bretoal2 New Member

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    A captured Kinsei was analysed in 1942 by Wright engineers.

    www.enginehistory.org/Japanese/KINSEI.pdf

    Reading this, you see that obviously, Kinsei did not copy ONE western engine, but two or more.

    “… the group responsible for the design did a very ingenious job of combining what they apparently believed to be the most desirable features of a number of products of foreign manufacture – proved features all. These features are built into a composite design of the sort that “has to work the first time” - an probably did. “

    What this study does not say :

    Kinsei technology reproduces cylinders and cylinder heads of the French engine manufacturer Gnome & Rhône (G&R 14K or 14N early marks) . It is the same for valve train, entirely managed in the front of the engine, with very characteristic "V" pushrods.

    As against the assembled crankshaft with central bearingl is typically Pratt & Whitney’s. And reduction gear too…

    Mitsubishi had acquired in 1935 the license of Gnome & Rhone 14K, but this engine was never mass produced in Japan. But no relationship with Lorraine, whose radial engines were totally outdated in the mid-30s.

    Regards

    Alain
     
  15. Shinpachi

    Shinpachi Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your information, Bretoal2.
    IJA and IJN were requesting Mitsubishi to develop better radial engines for them with similar but different specifications each other in Project A5, 6 and 7.
    Because such situation was placing Mitsubishi in confusion, Mitsubishi decided to launch Project A8 to show IJA and IJN what the most idealistic engine should be. They were to follow Mitsubishi as a result.
     
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