Luftwaffe Firestorms

[nuuumannn]

Berlin (Airport and the industrial suburb of Siemensstadt) was bombed before London was.

That is, if you don't count Zeppelin and Gotha raids on London and other British cities during the Great War. This is the futility of trying to establish who did what first.

As to Y-Verfähren RV Jones was a bit of a self promoter there, as research into the German records of KG100 show that the system was successfully used prior to when he claimed it was and used successfully thereafter. The British certainly were able to make its use difficult after they figured out how to jam it, but they didn't stop it from being successfully used against targets even as late as May 1941. Not sure about thereafter though, but the Baeddeker Blitz apparently was able to find its targets. By 1944 though the LW was having trouble finding London by night, so clearly the British managed to do something or at least the LW had lost its night skills.

A quote from Most Secret War, Jones' book. "The X-Gerat had been developed at least as early as 1937, and X-Beam stations had been set up for the bombing of Warsaw in 1939 and then transferred to the Eiffel region for operations against France..."

The difficulty wasn't that the British had trouble figuring out how to jam the equipment in 1940, it was getting those high up enough to gain an understanding of what was going on and to accept his theories. Jones was a rather clever chap attempting to figure out what the Germans were up to with the minimum of resources and personnel, not to mention a reluctance of senior staff to believe that the Germans were capable of producing such equipment. Lindemann (Lord Cherwell - scientific adviser to the PM) refused to acknowledge Jones' work, and claimed the Germans couldn't do what Jones was stating because their radio transmitters couldn't beam the signals around the curvature of the earth. It was after sending a naval officer flying round in an Anson detecting radio transmitted signals on particular frequencies during a German night bombing raid that Jones was able to confirm his theories that the Germans were using electronic means of guidance.

Jones was far from a blower of his own trumpet and if you read his book, Wiking, you'll find he gives credit to a great deal of individuals, but his effort in discovering this equipment for the British cannot be underestimated. Researchers who have investigated British records in the National Archive are quick to point out how accurate Jones' interpretation of events was. He also met with Plendl and his equivalents from Germany after the war and they were surprised at just how much he was able to have known as early as he did.

It's worth remembering that despite the issues with each of the German systems, they enabled the Luftwaffe to be the most accurate bombing force in the world; no one could achieve the results that the LW was carrying out in 1940 - 1941, not Bomber Command nor the USAAF or anyone else. Like Steve states, though, the LW personnel had other issues to contend with that affected their conduct outside the accuracy of their bombers. Jones himself states that he was surprised that the Germans didn't make as great a strategic use of this equipment and that had they done so, the results for Britain could have been catastrophic.

 

[Hop]

Berlin (Airport and the industrial suburb of Siemensstadt) was bombed before London was.
That is, if you don't count Zeppelin and Gotha raids on London and other British cities during the Great War.

Or the raid on Croydon on the 15 August, the raid on Wimbledon on the 17th, or the various night attacks on London boroughs. From Richard Overy, The Battle:

On the night of 18/19 August bombs fell on Croydon, Wimbledon and the Maldens. On the night of 22/23 August the first bombs fell on central London in attacks described by observers as 'extensive' and for which no warning was given; on the night of 24/25 August bombs fell in Slough, Richmond Park and Dulwich. On the night the RAF first raided Berlin, bombs fell on Banstead, Croydon, Lewisham, Uxbridge, Harrow and Hayes. On the night of the next raid on Berlin, on 28/29 August, German aircraft bombed the following London areas: Finchley, St Pancras, Wembley, Wood Green, Southgate, Crayford, Old Kent Road, Mill Hill, Ilford, Hendon, Chigwell. London was under 'red' warning for seven hours and five minutes. The bombing of London began almost two weeks before Hitler's speech on 4 September, and well before the first raid on Berlin.

 

[stona]

Pointless argument, made even more pointless by the fact that throughout all the bombing of both wars there was always a chance (and early on a very good one) that what actually got bombed was not the intended target at all. I've already given an example of the USAAF bombing Prague instead of Dresden in February 1945.

Cheers

Steve

 

[s1chris]

It was not X-Great the Germans used but X-Gerät which was an improvement on Knickebein. There was also Y-Gerät.

Some more confirmation of the aid used in the bombing of Coventry -

From the book "air raid" by Norman Longmate. A great read full I personal accounts of the Coventry raid and the air defences (or lack of). Clearly illustrates the make-up, layout of the city and why the firestorm was so fierce.

Cheers Chris

 

[stona]

It's amazing how some cities or towns become synonymous with these raids. Everyone has heard of Coventry, Dresden, Tokyo and the two targets of the atomic bombs and yet some of the most devastating raids are now forgotten.

10 days after Bomber Command's attack on Dresden they executed another 'perfect' raid on Pforzheim. 83% of the city was destroyed and 17,600 of its population was killed. That's roughly one in four (compared to one in twenty for Dresden if we accept a realistic death toll of around 25,000 and not the inflated post war claims made by Communist historians and adopted uncritically by 'historians' like Irving).
The raid is a footnote in Bomber Command's official history, appearing merely in a list of targets.
Who on this WW2 forum had even heard of Pforzheim?

The USAAF attacked the port of Swinemunde on 12th March 1945 (like Dresden at the request of the Russians). According to contemporary German reports up to 23,000 people were killed, mostly refugees waiting in mile long lines of boats in the harbour for evacuation. The actual death toll was certainly lower than that, but still into five figures.
The raid brought, according to an 8th AF official history 'an exciting variation from the normal routine.' It classifies the port as 'a transportation target.'
Who on this WW2 forum had heard of Swinemunde?

We are all very selective in our memories.

Steve

 

[s1chris]

Steve,

I think in this day in age those names are remembered as representative. At the end of the day who with just gerneral interst and a handed down knowledge would know about the others (maybe less publicised at the time?) It's fact that people like you who really look into the history of bombing and actions during the war that these comparisons can be made based upon the lesser known cities factually.

Think of England in the World Cup, name all of their losses. We probably can't but I bet every English man would say they know of the famous Argentina game. Not because they lost but because it's significant and well known and spoken about. Hell I'm only 30 years old, don't like football and have never seen the game in my life but I could tell you exactly why we lost it.

Same with the likes of Dresden and Coventry although I'd state that Coventry differs not being rememberd because of the amount of life lost but instead due to the distruction intentionally inflicted on the city centre infrastructure as a whole.

 

[stona]

I think you are right, but it is an unsafe way of remembering history. The exemplars can mask the fact that we were all raining death and destruction down on one another almost continuously. There is a tendency to remember the talismanic events as isolated incidents, which they were not.
Just saying
Cheers
Steve

 

[s1chris]

Agreed Steve, we've (I included) just got to be thankful there are those who know the facts and correct those of us who are through no intention or fault have been misinformed. Take my comment on Dresden being the "revenge" for Coventry. Thank The Lord for forums.

 

[Juha]

It's amazing how some cities or towns become synonymous with these raids. Everyone has heard of Coventry, Dresden, Tokyo and the two targets of the atomic bombs and yet some of the most devastating raids are now forgotten.

10 days after Bomber Command's attack on Dresden they executed another 'perfect' raid on Pforzheim. 83% of the city was destroyed and 17,600 of its population was killed. That's roughly one in four (compared to one in twenty for Dresden if we accept a realistic death toll of around 25,000 and not the inflated post war claims made by Communist historians and adopted uncritically by 'historians' like Irving).
The raid is a footnote in Bomber Command's official history, appearing merely in a list of targets.
Who on this WW2 forum had even heard of Pforzheim?

The USAAF attacked the port of Swinemunde on 12th March 1945 (like Dresden at the request of the Russians). According to contemporary German reports up to 23,000 people were killed, mostly refugees waiting in mile long lines of boats in the harbour for evacuation. The actual death toll was certainly lower than that, but still into five figures.
The raid brought, according to an 8th AF official history 'an exciting variation from the normal routine.' It classifies the port as 'a transportation target.'
Who on this WW2 forum had heard of Swinemunde?

We are all very selective in our memories.

Steve

Hello Steve
I happen to be familiar to both, I even own a copy of Schnatz' book on the Swinemünde bombing.IIRC most of the victims died on the eastern side of Swine were there weas a massive concetration of refugees, who had just broken through to Wolin through Soviet lines with retreating german troops and in the park next to the beach. His book is IMHO a good one, his article on the subject isn't that good but is online here:
historicum.net: Dresden des Nordens? Der Luftangriff auf Swinemünde am 12. März 1945[maxItems]=6
And on Pforzheim, see: CHRISTIAN GROH Pforzheim - 23. Februar 1945 Christian Groh: Pforzheim - 23. Februar 1945 (Themenportal Bombenkrieg - historicum.net)

Juha

 

[stona]

Good on you Juha! I bet you are one of a few though
Cheers
Steve