Luftwaffe if Hitler assassinated Oct 1939?

Admiral Beez · Jan 28, 2023

In Oct 1939, Polish Army members under General Michał Karaszewicz-Tokarzewski attempted to blow up Hitler, but at the last minute the parade was rerouted.

Assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But what if the Poles get it right, and Hitler is killed in a bomb blast. This being an aviation forum, how is the Luftwaffe impacted? The Fw 190 has has its first flight, but doesn't enter service until Aug 1941, nearly three years after Hitler's death. Can Goering wrestle control to expedite Luftwaffe expansion? And what of the navy? By the end of 1939, the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was 85% complete, with a projected completion by the middle of 1940.

Does Germany still invade Norway, France, plan Sealion and bomb Britain, and later invade the USSR? If so, does Hitler's demise put the Luftwaffe in better or worse position?

Zipper730 · Jan 28, 2023

Probably better. In fact, if I recall, the British had started dialing back some of their assassination plots towards the end of the war. The reason was that, allegedly at least, they were afraid they might replace him with somebody who was actually competent.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2023

Hmm. Goering was still Hitler's Golden Boy at that time, so Hitler's death could well see the Luftwaffe getting less favor and funding.

GrauGeist · Jan 28, 2023

Thumpalumpacus said:
Hmm. Goering was still Hitler's Golden Boy at that time, so Hitler's death could well see the Luftwaffe getting less favor and funding.

Rudolf Hess was 2nd in command until 1941.

If Hitler was killed in 1939, it's very likely that Hess would have negotiated a peace, thus avoiding war with France and Great Britain. How the month old Polish situation would have been worked out with the Soviet Union, is anyone's guess.

Admiral Beez · Jan 28, 2023

GrauGeist said:
Rudolf Hess was 2nd in command until 1941. If Hitler was killed in 1939, it's very likely that Hess would have negotiated a peace, thus avoiding war with France and Great Britain.

Hmm… and no Churchill government. By 1941, Germany, Britain and France march on Moscow. Who knows what Italy is up to. Or Japan, the Dutch and the US?

MikeMeech · Jan 28, 2023

Admiral Beez said:
Hmm… and no Churchill government. By 1941, Germany, Britain and France march on Moscow. Who knows what Italy is up to. Or Japan, the Dutch and the US?

Hi
So Britain (and France) spend the late 1930s trying to avoid another World War, then it is avoided by the death of Hitler in this scenario, you then suggest they go to war against the Soviet Union instead! A bit weird don't you think?

Mike

Admiral Beez · Jan 28, 2023

MikeMeech said:
So Britain (and France) spend the late 1930s trying to avoid another World War, then it is avoided by the death of Hitler in this scenario, you then suggest they go to war against the Soviet Union instead! A bit weird don't you think?

My thinking was that upon seeing Hitler dead, Germany in disarray and Britain and France clearly stunned, the Russians don't stop at Poland.

GrauGeist · Jan 28, 2023

Admiral Beez said:
the Russians don't stop at Poland.

Except that Germany is still there and if the Soviet Union attempts a run at German forces, then they're in for a severe ass kicking.

BlackSheep · Jan 28, 2023

Admiral Beez said:
Hmm… and no Churchill government. By 1941, Germany, Britain and France march on Moscow. Who knows what Italy is up to. Or Japan, the Dutch and the US?

Italy without Germany backing her play may try to expand in Africa but gets it's ass handed to it and runs home crying, Japan takes Asia (Asia for Asians), the Dutch now out meekly with strong words against Russia, The United States spends one to two years pretending to be neutral while providing material to the Brits, French, AND GERMANS. Henry Ford opens a tank factory in Germany and shows them what real manufacturing is. After semi-success, he realizes it'd be cheaper to build where the resources are and ship to Europe, wherein the German equivalent of the Sherman is designed,
Made in America, and shipped across to the Germans, Brits, and French. Inevitably, the one resource Stalin has the advantage in, warm bodies with somewhat functioning brains, draws American troops into the war creating the second front when the 82nd and 101st arrive ahead of the Big Red 1 and every active Marine division using Alaska and Japan as jumping off points Island in Russia. With Japanese influence, China overcomes its internal troubles yet never becomes a world power but ascends to a comfortable second world status.

Post-war: Ford built Porsche and Mercedes fill the driveways of America, while the F-series becomes "the world's truck".

SaparotRob · Jan 28, 2023

Nice.

Macandy · Jan 28, 2023

The Luftwaffe was doomed before the war kicked off.
It was a WWI Air Force - with monoplanes.

Admiral Beez · Jan 28, 2023

Macandy said:
The Luftwaffe was doomed before the war kicked off.
It was a WWI Air Force - with monoplanes.

IDK, give the Wehrmacht the trucks, fuel, logistics and equipment it needs and I'd say the Luftwaffe is up to the task of supporting it during Barbarossa. You can't invade Russia when your army is moving on boots and horseshoes.

Macandy · Jan 28, 2023

Admiral Beez said:
IDK, give the Wehrmacht the trucks, fuel, logistics and equipment it needs and I'd say the Luftwaffe is up to the task of supporting it during Barbarossa. You can't invade Russia when your army is moving on boots and horseshoes.

Germany went to war with a million horses, it finished the war with a million horses.
It was a WWI army at heart.
As for trucks? It docent have the ability to build trucks in quantity, let alone fuel them.
Half the trucks that went East for Barbarossa were ex BEF ones.

Admiral Beez · Jan 28, 2023

Macandy said:
Germany went to war with a million horses, it finished the war with a million horses. It was a WWI army at heart.

I agree. But the Luftwaffe had good kit, as good as any else's until well into the war. It can only provide air support for an army worthy of it. Barbarossa's fail was not a failure of the Luftwaffe. Asking it to provide air transport at Stalingrad when there weren't sufficient transports was a failure of politicians, not the aircraft or men. There's nothing wrong with a Ju-52, you just need ten thousand.

taly01 · Jan 28, 2023

Hitler had very little to do with the GAF, procurement and planning in relation to planes AFAIK? The conflict between Udet and Milch was a major cause of many GAF failures in procurement.

Udet was a dive bombing afficiando who made the Ju88 and He177 dive bomber capable which caused lots of problems.

This is a huge topic "above my pay grade" LOL

GrauGeist · Jan 28, 2023

The Heer had a considerable number of vehicles during the war, infinately more than were captured.

It was late war when attrition started to set in and the manufacturers could not keep up with losses both on the front and at the factories being bombed.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2023

GrauGeist said:
Rudolf Hess was 2nd in command until 1941.

If Hitler was killed in 1939, it's very likely that Hess would have negotiated a peace, thus avoiding war with France and Great Britain. How the month old Polish situation would have been worked out with the Soviet Union, is anyone's guess.

Right, Goering wasn't going to be top dog in 1939, and Hess definitely thought rapprochement with the UK was possible as late as 1941 when he took his flight. I was just saying that I think it's possible that Luftwaffe would have faced budget cuts etc without having Hitler in power any more.

Now it's possible that Hess, being an aviation guy, would have seen the wisdom of both negotiating a peace while still strengthening LW. In that scenario, probably the KMS loses more? The two battleships

GrauGeist · Jan 28, 2023

The momentum behind the National Socialists, was military strength.

I honestly don't think that with Hitler out of the picture, there would be any let up on their military.
It would, perhaps, take a more rational path since the mad Corporal is no longer in charge.

Thumpalumpacus · Jan 28, 2023

GrauGeist said:
The Heer had a considerable number of vehicles during the war, infinately more than were captured.

It was late war when attrition started to set in and the manufacturers could not keep up with losses both on the front and at the factories being bombed.

As I recall, around 85-90% of the Heer invading France was not mechanized. Siegfried Knappe, in his book Soldat, covering his time a an artilleryman through the war, also addresses this. Even early in the war, the Wehrmacht was mostly horse-drawn, outside the ten panzer divisions and six or eight mechanized infantry divs.

GrauGeist said:
The momentum behind the National Socialists, was military strength.

I honestly don't think that with Hitler out of the picture, there would be any let up on their military.
It would, perhaps, take a more rational path since the mad Corporal is no longer in charge.

I don't doubt it would make a political solution easier to arrive at.

BlackSheep · Jan 28, 2023

GrauGeist said:
Rudolf Hess was 2nd in command until 1941.

If Hitler was killed in 1939, it's very likely that Hess would have negotiated a peace, thus avoiding war with France and Great Britain. How the month old Polish situation would have been worked out with the Soviet Union, is anyone's guess.

On September 1, 1939, hours after the invasion of Poland began, Hitler officially named Goering as his successor and Hess, as number three, muddying up the chain of command until Hess removed himself from everything..

Luftwaffe if Hitler assassinated Oct 1939?

Major

Chief Master Sergeant

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Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Major

Senior Airman

Major

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Banned

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Senior Airman

Major

Senior Airman

Major

Senior Airman

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Major

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Major

Banned

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