Luftwaffe in 1936-41 improvements?

[JAG88]

Well, I don't think they did that badly IRL, looking at 109E vs Spitfire production for example. I suppose with hindsight they could have done even better but what level of knowledge are we assuming here? Sending back engineers with laptops full of data?

No, they did, the problem was two fold, German artisan culture meant workers expected solid and relevant training, a career, they took pride in doing precise work and being rewarded for doing it, in learning about what you are building and improving it... mass production is the opposite of that, you are told what to do, shut up, and do it quickly and mechanically 100 times a day.

That didnt fly with the German worker mindset. Moreover, when German workers got drafted to work in the aircraft industry many got themselves fired, they simply didnt like the conditions to the point imported slave workers were just as productive...

Setting up for mass production from the start might help a bit.

The other problem was factory setup, they simply didnt set up for mass-production... but they could have, Junkers had devised a method now called Takt Time for streamlined production, it is still used today. Some interesting reading:

Takt time - Even more about origins in German aircraft manufacturing - Michel Baudin's Blog

Several other interesting bits in the blog, worth reading it.

The RLM could have forced all German producers to adopt Junkers' methods or they would receive no money, and since all the industry was funded by the RLMs own bank there is no way they can refuse.

The 109 was built in vast numbers because it was designed to be built quickly and easily from the start, the Spitfire was not. On the other hand, the Germans were slow to implement mass production, while the British embraced mass-production from the start.

You need a working heavy design first, this is 1940 remember. And the Condor was easy pickings for fighters as soon as the escort carriers got going.

This one flew in 1937, could lift 10t to 7.000m on 4 anemic engines, they could have developed it further... well, they kinda did, turned it into an airliner and then back into a military aircraft while managing to make a handful:

...and all isolated bombers were easy pickings for fighters, no exceptions.

A preventive strike by the USSR in 1941 (IIRC Zukhov actually wanted to do this but Stalin didn't) would probably favour the Germans. Interesting butterfly effect.

Yep, Zhukov was asking for it and Stalin objected because he was convinced Hitler wasnt dumb and would avoid a 2 front war at all costs, he thought that the rumors about Barbarossa were a British ploy and the troop movements rogue German generals trying to cause a military incident.

 

[Shortround6]

The Ju-87R1 (Jumo 211A-1 engine, 1000 HP for take off) was carrying, max, 1000 kg bomb + 2 drop tanks:

Thank you for the page,

I would note that the official, book max bomb load for the B-17 was over 17,000lbs
seldom, if ever, carried on operations and only at the expense of large amount of the fuel.

Was the "R" used very much with the heavier bombs?

 

[tomo pauk]

Was the "R" used very much with the heavier bombs?

Probably all of the Ju 87 series were rerely flying with a bomb bigger than 500 kg under centreline (plus wing bombs), even the Ju 87D that was rated for much greater bomb & fuel load.

 

[taly01]

Or, discover Window. Its easier to mess up radar signals than destroy mobile radar units. That would have increased loss of squadron control which is one of the major advantages the RAF had.

Amazingly this is the first time I have read this obvious solution to disable "Battle of Britain" radar! I can add that the Germans did know about the effect of windows but "Goering" told them to shut up about it in case the allies found out, but the English already knew but didn't want to use it in case the Germans found out LOL, finally the British did begin using it in late 1943.

Yep, Zhukov was asking for it and Stalin objected because he was convinced Hitler wasnt dumb and would avoid a 2 front war at all costs, he thought that the rumors about Barbarossa were a British ploy and the troop movements rogue German generals trying to cause a military incident.

The Hitler-Mannerheim recordings have Hitler in private conversation mid 1942 telling his analysis of the early part of WW2, basically he was stalled by poor weather in 1940 western europe, then diverted by Italy's failed wars in Greece 1941 before he could invade USSR, when he did he found "35,000" soviet tanks plus huge amounts of other weapons already waiting for them.

 

[JAG88]

Amazingly this is the first time I have read this obvious solution to disable "Battle of Britain" radar! I can add that the Germans did know about the effect of windows but "Goering" told them to shut up about it in case the allies found out, but the English already knew but didn't want to use it in case the Germans found out LOL, finally the British did begin using it in late 1943.





The Hitler-Mannerheim recordings have Hitler in private conversation mid 1942 telling his analysis of the early part of WW2, basically he was stalled by poor weather in 1940 western europe, then diverted by Italy's failed wars in Greece 1941 before he could invade USSR, when he did he found "35,000" soviet tanks plus huge amounts of other weapons already waiting for them.

Without an engaged Germany, Stalin would know he is next and Zhukov's standing recommendation was a preemptive strike. Germany had to wait for the ground to dry but Stalin didnt care much for such details, so they are likely to strike first.

Guderian went to the USSR pre-war and claimed they had 10.000 tanks already with many more to come, they even knew of the new tanks, calling the T34 the "T32", one of its early names.

The Heer's intelligence work was crap.

 

[VA5124]

i say stop the bf 110 and put the bf109 in high rate production and also make both the he100 and he112 and make the ju87 a retractible gear bomber

 

[nuuumannn]

Having seen this pop up again, I thought I'd have another look and I think my earlier presumptions about the Luftwaffe still stand, but the subject is worth a re-think. We determine what the LW/RLM should have done based on what it ended up doing, but what if what it ended up doing was not what it actually planned to do to begin with? Germany can't build big four-engined strategic bombers in large numbers, hence a fleet of smaller bombers disguised as transports and even bomber transports in the Ju 52/3m. The Bf 109 is one of the best fighters in the world into 1940 and yes the Bf 110 is miscast as a long-range fighter, but it has to stay and should have been cast from the outset as a bomber/reconnaissance asset because of its excellent performance (how and why did the RLM think a three-seat aircraft capable of carrying recon cameras internally and with a useful bomb load, originally in a bomb bay but changed, could be a fighter beggars belief, even for the mid-30s) and it is very capable. Attempting to invade Britain broke the LW and if the idea had been put to Goering before the war he'd probably said to do it because he was hubristic, but experts such as Theo Osterkamp would have wisely tried to talk him out of it because he and others knew it was futile. Britain did have the most sophisticated integrated air defence network in the world at the time, for one thing...

Nevertheless, as has been said, the Germans fought a war they were not prepared for, even if they had one of the best air forces in the world. They weren't expecting Britain and France to declare war on them when they invaded Poland, nor were they expecting to do as well as they did in subjugating Western Europe, which unfortunately for them led them to think they were invincible. The attempted invasion of Britain and the LW campaign stemmed German hubris. They could have just stopped on continental Europe, but madmen be mad, so even had they done that and not attempted to attack Britain, Hitler's eyes had always been looking east toward Russia, even though that was even less achievable.

 

[Shortround6]

i say stop the bf 110 and put the bf109 in high rate production and also make both the he100 and he112 and make the ju87 a retractible gear bomber

Where do all these factories come from?

 

[VA5124]

Where do all these factories come from?

well if theres no bf110 theres room there to make 109s you can use the catpured french one to bulid the he 100 and 112

 

[GrauGeist]

well if theres no bf110 theres room there to make 109s you can use the catpured french one to bulid the he 100 and 112

If there's no Bf110, then what fills the Bf110's highly successful night-fighter role?

 

[VA5124]

If there's no Bf110, then what fills the Bf110's highly successful night-fighter role?

cannon armed and reenigned ju88s

 

[GrauGeist]

cannon armed and reenigned ju88s

What if there were no Ju88s developed, then what?

 

[VA5124]

What if there were no Ju88s developed, then what?

you could use any of the three twin enigine bomber designs the 88 the do 17 or the he111 just change the enigines and add cannons

 

[Shortround6]

He 112 lost to the 109 in a fighter competition. Why put the loser into production, just build more 109s.
He 100 was not a very good fighter, it's performance depended upon it's small size and it's small size made upgrading with either more fuel or more guns difficult.

 

[Shortround6]

you could use any of the three twin enigine bomber designs the 88 the do 17 or the he111 just change the enigines and add cannons

Really?

An He 111 night fighter, just change the engines?
to what? Rockets?

 

[VA5124]

He 112 lost to the 109 in a fighter competition. Why put the loser into production, just build more 109s.
He 100 was not a very good fighter, it's performance depended upon it's small size and it's small size made upgrading with either more fuel or more guns difficult.

i said bulid all three because of the 110 not being bulit

 

[Shortround6]

Then come up with something that some remote possibility of actually working.
Not throwing out suggestions like pasta at a wall and seeing what sticks.

 

[VA5124]

Then come up with something that some remote possibility of actually working.
Not throwing out suggestions like pasta at a wall and seeing what sticks.

im not a expert ill be honest i thought mass production of muliple types was a good idea im sorry i wasted your ill will leave if you like

 

[GrauGeist]

The He112 had better range than the Bf109, plus it would have been a solid ground attack platform before the Fw190F came into being.
The He100 was more of a novelty than useful.
The Bf110 was armed with foreward firing cannon and much faster than the Ju88 (even with imaginary engines), so replacing the Bf110 with the Ju88 is a step backwards.

 

[VA5124]

The He112 had better range than the Bf109, plus it would have been a solid ground attack platform before the Fw190F came into being.
The He100 was more of a novelty than useful.
The Bf110 was armed with foreward firing cannon and much faster than the Ju88 (even with imaginary engines), so replacing the Bf110 with the Ju88 is a step backwards.

im sorry i wasted yalls time im just a man thats love planes and loves discussing them