Luftwaffe loses

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Soundbreaker Welch? said:
How many kills did the Luftwaffe get in say the Meschersmitt? I bet a lot, especially on the Russian front.

The Ost Front accounted for so many kills it is not funny. Others have allready posted some figures for the individual staffeln or Geschwadern but just check out some of the pilots like Hartmann and that says a lot.

Erich · May 28, 2006

to throw a little twang into the August 17, 43 mission for day/eve ops :

US 8th AF reported an incredible amount of claims for both Schweinfurt and Regensburg : 288 kills for the bombers alone and another 19 kills by US P-47's. The Luftwaffe lost a total of 25 a/c

JG's 1, 2, 3, 26, 51, 54
NJG's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 ands training unit 101 The Bf 110G units lost to B-17 combats were 8 on this date, none to US or RAF fighters. At night on the 17/18th of August, 2 Bf 110G's to Beufighters, several to landing accidents . .

what's my point you say ? no singular archiv or source will give you exact totals of losses or victories - not even Tony Woods and he will tell you the same thing for the Luftwaffe. You have to cross check for every single day of combat, which in some cases is almost impossible due to the fact of lost records and incomplete (Luftwaffe Geschwader sources) - twin engine especially and the NJG which is almost entirely incomplete or lost during the war and afterward

Erich · May 28, 2006

let me post two more 1943/44 dates just to show how crazy the claiming system was in 43/early 44 for the bomber crews of the 8th AF . . . . and the craziness of the aerial engagements there-of

10 October 43 terrible battle over Münster:

Bombers claimed 183 Luftwaffe kills, for the losses of 30 bombers . Luftwaffe actually lost 27 fighters

14 October 43, the other Schweinfurt battle:

Bombers claimed some 186 Luftwaffe kills for losses of around 72 bombers . Luftwaffe lost 38 fighters

11 Janaury 44, Oschersleben, Halberstadt, Brunswick battle:

Bombers claimed some 228 Luftwaffe kills with 31 kills going to fighters in addition. over 60 bombers shot down. heavy rocket attacks by Bf 110G fighters destroy lead pathfinder and the 8th AF bomber missions seemed to head down stream from there .............

Luftwaffe lost 39 of it's 209 fighters engaged

a bloody day in the skies over Germany

lesofprimus · May 28, 2006

a bloody day in the skies over Germany

To say the least...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Wow interesting info there. I fly into Schweinfurt on a daily basis only and it kind of feels wiered to think that in that same space of air there was slaughter only 60 years prior.

Dac · May 28, 2006

I was refering to pilot claims Hop. I think there was one day where the RAF announced it had destroyed 187 aircraft based on claims but Luftwaffe records show it only lost 37. At that time the numbers were being used for propaganda purposes, and I seem to remember reading that kills claimed at that time are still not considered to be official.

Hop · May 28, 2006

I was refering to pilot claims Hop.

So was I. The 2,399 claims are those accepted by the RAF and released to the press the same evening.

I think there was one day where the RAF announced it had destroyed 187 aircraft based on claims but Luftwaffe records show it only lost 37.

It was 186, I believe, on the 15th September, and actual Luftwaffe losses were 56 - 60. But study claimed vs actual losses and you'll find the greatest discrepancy in big battles. Over the course of the battle, the RAF claims were much closer to actual German losses (certainly far closer than German claims; the Jagdwaffe alone claimed 2,000 single engined fighters, the RAF lost approx 1,000, many to bombers. I haven't seen a figure for the bombers claims)

no singular archiv or source will give you exact totals of losses or victories - not even Tony Woods and he will tell you the same thing for the Luftwaffe. You have to cross check for every single day of combat, which in some cases is almost impossible due to the fact of lost records and incomplete (Luftwaffe Geschwader sources) - twin engine especially and the NJG which is almost entirely incomplete or lost during the war and afterward

Do you mean there are more Jagdwaffe claims than Tony Woods has listed? (I don't mean the accuracy of the claims, which as you say can be very hard to pin down). What I mean is if Tony Woods lists 2,000 single engine fighter claims by the Jagdwaffe during the BoB, there might actually be more claims that he hasn't found?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Either way you put it, both sides overclaimed. It has been a heated dispute since the beginning of aviation.

Erich · May 28, 2006

the BoB is not my specialty at all from late 43 till wars end .......

Tony and others have said the direct copies from the Freiburg BA/MA in some cases is almost impossible to read. I have the complete nachtjagd recoreds for thewar and there are gaps throughout for every year. Claims/kills are still being studied and cross-checked and referenced, losses on the other hand seem to be more fully covered as Andreas Brekken on his noted Norwegian site has a huge data base covering Luftwaffe loss records and not just over the Scandanavian north

Dac · May 28, 2006

To get back to the original question, I guess there's no definitive answer but it looks like bomber claims were probably more exagerated than fighter claims and either the Spits or the Mustang is the highest scorer in the west and not the B-17.

And for the Luftwaffe the Bf-109 probably did the most damage in all theaters.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Well one reason for that could be the fact that on the bombers you have multiple gunners shooting at the same target and if one gets hit, they all claim the same kill.

PipsPriller · May 28, 2006

Erich, could you perchance post Andreas site link. I'm not aware of it. Thanks.

Dogwalker · May 28, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Well one reason for that could be the fact that on the bombers you have multiple gunners shooting at the same target and if one gets hit, they all claim the same kill.

Or, since the bombers flew in boxes, and even a falling fighter cant' stop suddenly, but will continue to pass through the formation for a while, the gunners of several different bombers will believe to have shot down the same aircraft.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 28, 2006

Yeah basically the same thing I said.

Erich · May 28, 2006

since the German fighters flew with crap fuels which caused a problem with smoke, and the tactic early war was to go through the bombers and then turn on their back, bomber gunners thought they had a sure kill when the Fw 190 pilot gave it all running through the formation.

Pips you will have to go check Andreas profile at TOCH web-site run by Ruy Horta.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/index.php?

PipsPriller · May 28, 2006

Hop,

Thanks for the information from Foreman's book/s. Good grief there are five volumes in the series. Guess I'd better get busy searching them out.

lesofprimus · May 28, 2006

Here is the site for Andreas' info...

http://www.ahs.no/

Dogwalker · May 28, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Yeah basically the same thing I said.

Completely the same.
I misread it first.

Erich · May 28, 2006

note :

the losses appearing on Andreas site come from the German archiv and can be purchased by month and or year. Andreas explains how this can be done on his site . . . .

PipsPriller · May 29, 2006

Thanks.

Luftwaffe loses

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