Luftwaffe loses

Jabberwocky · May 29, 2006

PipsPriller said:
Now that figure is interesting. First time I've seen a shootdown total for the RAF.

Can't reconcile it though, given that the Spitfire had little chance of scoring in big number (and for that total to be correct it HAD to score in big quantity) after the BoB. Throughout 1941-44 it's range in Europe limited it to bascially France and the German border, where it only had small numbers of Luftwaffe fighter units to combat, and the occassional Kampfgruppe moved there. Mind you RAF claims over France in '41 and '42 were outrageously inflated.

It missed all the big fighter battles of late 1943 and throughout '44 (USAAF domain, particulary the P-51), which centred around the day bomber fleets. And whilst it was active over Europe from Late June '44 onwards it's range still limited it to front line action, rather than the deep penetration missions into Germany where the bulk of the Luftwaffe fighters operated from.

Does Foreman by any chance provide details of claims by month/year and or area of operation? Other than the general umbrella of Europe?

I have volumes 4 and 5 of Formeans books, covering June 1943 through to the end of the war. They are actually a day by day break down of all Fighter Command and 2 TAF claims and losses, as well as squadron re-equipments, with a summary at the end of each month and a general summary after every 6 months or so.

Foreman's conclusion, based off around 10 years of research on German and British losses, was the larger the fighter the higher the overclaiming, but in general, Fighter Command claimed around 3 kills for every 2 actual shoot downs.

Twitch · Jun 1, 2006

From a different point of view remember the vast number of aircraft built diring the war. Overclaiming or not there were plenty in the air-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_aircraft_production

PS- I normally hate this wikopedia being that it's cheezy and 50% wrong info but I ain't going to my books right now to look this up.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 6, 2006

I sometimes resort to wikipedia as well, because it is a quick source sometimes for decent info, even though most is wrong.

Twitch · Jun 7, 2006

Well the 119,000 German planes produced weren't ALL downed by flak.

wmaxt · Jun 8, 2006

One thing about the AAF claims as they are presented today. In 1957 a review of all claims was made and if records did not support confirmation those kills was dropped. For instance, the P-38 had at the end of the war 5734 kills awarded in the Pacific, in 1957 that was reduced to somewhere between 1.600 and 2,200 (I keep getting different numbers). One thing that affects this is the loss of records, P-38s flew from many forward strips subject to attack second many/most of the fights were over water making cooroboration by ground sources impossible, third early P-38 gun cameras were not in a good location and were usually no good for confirmation . This is true for all AAF planes except the P-51 which added a few in the ETO.

wmaxt

Hop · Jun 8, 2006

The USAAF statistical digest, published in December 1945, says about 4,100 aerial kills were scored by USAAF fighters in all theatres vs Japan (Pacific, Alaska, CBI etc). Ground kills by fighters amounted to about 1,080.

wmaxt · Jun 9, 2006

Hop said:
The USAAF statistical digest, published in December 1945, says about 4,100 aerial kills were scored by USAAF fighters in all theatres vs Japan (Pacific, Alaska, CBI etc). Ground kills by fighters amounted to about 1,080.

I've seen that 5734 number a hundred times and I can't tell you where it came from - oh well. I just checked the AAF stats and the current numbers are 4701 air and 1000 ground. This includes Alaska and the 20th AF.

The lost records and open ocean issues, greatly confused by cloud cover giving no way to visually confirm many kills/misses, also play a part but then overclaiming has an effect to, so this is a subject that will never be solved.

Another issue that the stats don't add up is losses. The AAF lists 5324 fighters lost to all causes in the ETO but the comonly used numbers add up to 9105, and another page, 8th AF Losses, shows 3695 and includes accidents etc. On this page the bomber losses for instance are broken down by bomb group and a tail number search source is included at the site (I tend to believe this is the most accurate site on 8th AF losses). I'm doing research on this now to clarify it as much as I can, part of the problem is that sometimes the MTO gets included with the ETO and skewing the stats.

wmaxt

Erich · Jun 10, 2006

gents the only way you can actually get a most accurate acct. is to interview bomb group and fighter group representatives. I have done searchs through books on the 8th, 9th and 15th AF of the ETO and asked question(s) of the reps and every one of them said the losses and kills are wrong in the books .....

oh well

Henk · Jun 10, 2006

That is quite difficult to get to a number. Well to check ever record of every plane ever build and to find out if it was lost or not, but that will be difficult.

lesofprimus · Jun 10, 2006

Bottom line, and once again I am repeating myself...

No one knows how many aircraft went down to enemy guns, and no one will EVER know, so stop with the senseless bullsh*t........

Christ Almighty, Im sounding like a broken record....

Henk · Jun 10, 2006

lesofprimus said:
Bottom line, and once again I am repeating myself...

No one knows how many aircraft went down to enemy guns, and no one will EVER know, so stop with the senseless bullsh*t........

Christ Almighty, Im sounding like a broken record....

Twitch · Jun 12, 2006

I can tell you that 4,100 number is big time bogus!! There were officially 1,184 aces in WW 2. If each man ONLY scored 5 kills that would far exceed 4,100!

plan_D · Jun 12, 2006

German aces alone must make up more than 4,100.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 12, 2006

The top 100 German aces make up more than that.

lesofprimus · Jun 12, 2006

Yup..

Hop · Jun 12, 2006

I can tell you that 4,100 number is big time bogus!! There were officially 1,184 aces in WW 2. If each man ONLY scored 5 kills that would far exceed 4,100!

The 4100 is for USAAF against the Japanese only. ie it excludes all navy kills, all kills against the Germans, Italians etc.

As to it being bogus, almost certainly. The USAF list of kill credits from all wars gives closer to 4,800 kills by the USAAF against Japan, but they seem to include the AVG as well (fair enough, I suppose)

Total USAAF fighter kill claims in WW2 in aerial combat were between 15 and 16,000, iirc.

R Leonard · Jun 13, 2006

I won't bother to go through all this again, but 5734 P-38 credits against the Japanese is BS. There has never, say again, NEVER, been a reliable source presented for this claim. There are at least three threads on this board covering this issue in detail.

Rich

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 13, 2006

And it goes on and on....

Twitch · Jun 13, 2006

The 1,184 number is American aces. The Japanese built 76,000+ and the Germans built 119,000+ planes so most any figures are reasonable since all those crates weren't lost in bad landings!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jun 13, 2006

Yes but 119,000 and 76,000 planes were not shot down.

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