Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
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Lokking at the info provided in this thread the overall thing looks to be that earlier war aircraft relied more on manoeuvre
than later war aircraft.
This looks to be mainly due to firepower. The smaller, lighter planes had zoom but not enough boom so staying on target was important
to be able to put enough shots in.
As the war went on the larger framed or newer, larger framed planes could carry more cannons / MG's giving a sharp boom element
coupled with better zoom.
For example - Wildcat 4 x .5 MG with 450 rounds per gun - 1800 rounds.
Hellcat 6 x .5 MG with 400 rounds per gun - 2400 rounds or 4 x .5 MG with 400 rounds per gun plus 2 x 20mm cannon
with 225 rounds per gun.
Speed increases and for many, better climb rates helped with the zoom factor.
The other factor is armour and self sealing tanks. Aircraft could take a hit without necessarily falling to bits.
Aircraft without all these improvements were not going to survive for long.
Boom and zoom in this case also applies to ground attack. Planes that could remain controllable in high speed dives and turn / climb fast
were dangerous as ground attack weapons. Shturmovik vs Mosquito for instance.
Give me a MkV Spit and free reign to do what I want and I'd give it a red hot go.
How far are we talking?, I'd clean up a squadron of MkVa's, nice paint, cover the gun muzzles, 33-33G rear tanks with bob weights correcting the handling, 96G main tank, 13-13G leading edge with a 90G DT, I'd chat with RR about how lean I could run the Merlin using the SU injection carby and give them a run at 200mph at 12-15,000ft.You won't make it to Rabaul!
How far are we talking?, I'd clean up a squadron of MkVa's, nice paint, cover the gun muzzles, 33-33G rear tanks with bob weights correcting the handling, 96G main tank, 13-13G leading edge with a 90G DT, I'd chat with RR about how lean I could run the Merlin using the SU injection carby and give them a run at 200mph at 12-15,000ft.
This was the longest range escort mission flown by a Spitfire, AFAIK:How far are we talking?, I'd clean up a squadron of MkVa's, nice paint, cover the gun muzzles, 33-33G rear tanks with bob weights correcting the handling, 96G main tank, 13-13G leading edge with a 90G DT, I'd chat with RR about how lean I could run the Merlin using the SU injection carby and give them a run at 200mph at 12-15,000ft.
This was the longest range escort mission flown by a Spitfire, AFAIK:
Longest Spitfire raid of WWII.
On the 27th of Nov 1944, five spitfires from No. 549 sqn RAF and 2 spitfires from No.1 Fighter Wing, RAAF in conjuction with 4 B-25's from No. 2 sqn RAAF plus an ASR Catalina, attacked and destroyed a Japanese radar station at Cape Lore on Portuguese Timor. The raid was a round trip of some 850...ww2aircraft.net
The Mk VIII data card:
shows a range on internal fuel of 740 miles at 20K ft, with a 23IG allowance for warmup, TO and climb. Range with the 90IG DT was 1265 miles at 20k ft, again with an allowance for warmup, TO and climb.
So a mission from Rabaul to Guadalcanal was possible in a Spitfire VIII but it would be a bit nerve wracking on the flight back. OTOH, the range could be stretched a bit by using the low speed, low RPM cruise, as used by the IJN.
90IG DTs were used in combat.
Spit VIII had much better range than a Spit V. But if I'm reading that right, "a round trip of some 850 miles taking 4.5 hours." wouldn't quite cut it to Rabaul from Guadalcanal. Maybe 2/3 of the way there and back.
Unless he means 850 miles each way.
english is not my language but round trip and 4.5 hours is clear, for me is 850 included the back way
IMO, the simple truth is this as far as fighter evolution during World War II--the focus went from traditional agility and lightness to speed, climb rate and firepower. The reason for this, in simplest terms, was due to bomber/recon plane design. Bomber and recon planes realized that speed could be life. The result is that they got larger and more powerful (more powerful, often larger/heavier engines, and more fuel for those engines as well as a desire for increased range).
This meant that fighters had to get faster though similar means, and even with radar, the speeds of possible bomber and recon planes shortened intercept windows, hence speeds, climb rates and power rose, to the detriment of traditional low speed agility. However, even fighters did see the advantages of sacrificing that in favor of speed, agility at higher speeds, climb rate and firepower. Not to mention that as all planes got faster, firepower increased, due to the narrower windows of keeping on target in a maneuvering fight.
Of course, more and heavier machine guns and cannons did also mean more weight, which goes in concert with the power increases.
This, of course, is a big generalization. However, even early on this trend was realized. The genesis of the Hawker Typhoon/Tempest began in 1938. Even the IJA/IJN realized at about the same time that things were starting to change, as they realized they needed fast point interceptors to protect territory. I do think that they (and some others as well) got caught out by how fast things changed.
And as to the assertion that the Zero was a "1940" fighter, well, one, it first entered service that year, if we want to be fair and accurate. Secondly, if it was serving in the European Theater, it's performance, especially in terms of speed and even climb, would've been good for 1940, but by 1942, it would've been obsolescent, if not obsolete.
In the Pacific, the Zero was helped by the fact that, one, most western powers weren't fielding the "latest and greatest" like they were in Europe. Overmatch against the Zero in terms of performance didn't fully happen for the USN/USMC until the Corsair and Hellcat entered service. Also for the British Commonwealth, the Spitfire VIII didn't enter service until sometime in the second half of 1943--months after it entered service in the European Theater. Also for the USAAF, Allison powered P-51s and A-36 fighter/dive bombers didn't show up in the CBI until about the same time in numbers.
Some of this was also due to the Allies agreement/mentality of "defeat Germany first if possible" edict. And understandably so, since it was felt that Germany was the more dangerous foe at the time. How much of that was accurate and how much was still rooted in old prejudices/biases, is up for debate.
Fact is that Japan in some areas weren't far behind the Allies or even Germany, in some areas they were. As mentioned, Japan did realize that fast interceptors were needed as soon as 1938. Problem was that existing programs took priority, and the interceptors' development also had some problems--though they weren't unique in that, as several air arms had problems with developing the first 400+ mph fighters.
Japan also had the issue of sort of having to play catch up with the western world in terms of industrialization. This wasn't for lack of smarts or talent. But until Admiral Perry showed up, Japan was largely isolated from the rest of the world, and they were decades behind much of the rest of the world as far as the Industrial Revolution.
Also, as far as infantry, the IJA was one of the first armies to widely use machine guns for infantry support. Though, oddly, during World War II, they didn't widely field submachine guns, which were ideal for jungle warfare at the time.
So as far as the Japan vs the world deal, they did lag behind in several areas during World War II. Some of this was partially also to the IJN getting favor for a lot of raw materials, such as steel for warships vs the IJA for tanks, for example. But for Japan being an island nation who's defensive and offensive operations would likely be heavily naval based, this did make sense. However, I do think that we should give them a bit more credit from a talent and smarts standpoint. Though if you're limited with what you have to work with, you're limited with what you have to work with.
The range figures in the data card are range at altitude with an allowance for warmup, take off and climb and cruise at 20K ft, in a fully armed aircraft, which isn't quite the same as a ferry range. Any allowance for combat would reduce the usable range; a mission from Rabual to Guadalcanal would mean that the combat allowance could only ~5min. The range with the same fuel load could be extended, using the Sakai's methods (low altitude, low RPM cruise to combat zone ) and other IJN decisions, such as removing the radios and radio masts, and this would increase the combat allowance as well.That chart you posted for the Spitfire, the 1265 mile figure looks suspiciously like the ferry range for the aircraft - which would imply that the maximum combat radius would be around 420 miles (for many aircraft combat radius is often around 1/3 of its ferry range). As Wild Bill pointed out, the Spitfire would only reach about 65% of the distance and then they would have to turn back.
The A6M3 probably couldn't do that far, but the M5 could and maybe a little then some)
Among the post-war jets however, once again, speed vs. agility become competing design elements. Which is better, a MiG 15 or an F-86? A MiG 25 or an F-16?
No, it's just that we were discussing day fighters. Night fighters are a very different context, and usually, different aircraft too (typically though not always twin engine aircraft). Maneuverability isn't so much of an issue with nighttime air combat either.
Once missiles come into the picture, it's less about maneuvering or speed, and more about detection and ECM capabilities. The era of gun-only jets wasn't long, about 10 years. At jet speeds missiles became a must. MiG-15 against F-86, we're still talking OK Corral, but once sensor- and missile-ranges ramp up in the 70s, it's more about the suite than the plane itself.
Speed does matter in terms of getting into position to take the shot, and also in terms of getting your planes where they need to be, but in modern combat with all-aspect missiles, I'm not sure either speed or agility matter as much as electronics, outside of positioning itself.