The Zero's Maneuverability

[MiTasol]

The M6A1 had a folding rudder and tailplane but the folding wings could only be folded after the floats were removed. The M6A1-K was a trainer version of it.

The floats were designed to be jettisoned if the aircraft was in combat.

From Francillions Japanese aircraft of the second world war

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[SaparotRob]

It's much larger than I thought.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's much larger than I thought.

And it was designed to operate from I-400 class subs, too.

 

[SaparotRob]

And it was designed to operate from I-400 class subs, too.

That's why I thought it was smaller. Those I-400 subs were huge but still, I didn't think stuffing a plane that large was doable.

 

[special ed]

As I recall, the I-400s were the largest subs until 1953 when the USS Nautilus atomic powered was launched.

 

[Admiral Beez]

That's why I thought it was smaller. Those I-400 subs were huge but still, I didn't think stuffing a plane that large was doable.

How the Japanese thought a single small strike aircraft was going to have any impact on US capability, strategy or morale is madness. Unless Japan can reach twenty years into the future and grab a B28 nuclear bomb, this submarine strike aircraft concept is a dead-end.

 

[Glider]

As I recall, the I-400s were the largest subs until 1953 when the USS Nautilus atomic powered was launched.

I think the French Surcouf is a contender carrying a floatplane and being armed with two eight inch guns.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If I recall correctly the I-400s were the largest subs by submerged displacement until the Polaris subs fielded by the USN.

 

[GrauGeist]

For the record, the I-400 class subs carried three Aichi M6A1 aircraft in their hangars while the smaller "AM" (I-13) class subs carried two M6A1s.

Unlike other types that carried recon aircraft, the I-13 and I-400 subs carried strike aircraft, which is why the Seiran was so large.

One of the planned operations for the I-13 and I-400 subs, were to attack the locks of the Panama canal, which was cancelled.

 

[GrauGeist]

If I recall correctly the I-400s were the largest subs by submerged displacement until the Polaris subs fielded by the USN.

I belive your are correct.
If I remember right, the I-400's displacement wasn't matched until the early 60's.

 

[Admiral Beez]

It's a wonder, given Nazi Germany's liking for the superlative kit that the Kreigsmarine did not field a submarine of the I-400 or Surcouf scale. There was the planned, Type XI-B uboat, of 4,650 tons submerged, armed with 4 × 5.9-inch (15 cm) naval guns and carrying an Arado Ar 231floatplane in a watertight hangar. But I mean really big, like the USSR's Project 717 invasion subs.

 

[Admiral Beez]

For sure, the B5N fold saves a lot of space in the hangar and means you can get it up and down a smaller elevator. Maybe the B5N was designed to fit on smaller elevators on other carriers or simply to save space? Who knows? But looking at the attached picture of the Hiryu's elevators, it looks like the elevators were of different size and the Zero's fold was done to make it "elevatorable" on smaller type elevators.

View attachment 829377

I thought the B5N was a land-based IJNAS aircraft?

 

[GrauGeist]

I thought the B5N was a land-based IJNAS aircraft?

The "Kate" was certainly carrier based and participated in most of the IJN's Ops during the war.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I thought the B5N was a land-based IJNAS aircraft?

No, the B5N is the Kate torpedo bomber, used from Pearl Harbor onwards.

Nakajima B5N - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GrauGeist]

No, the B5N is the Kate torpedo bomber, used from Pearl Harbor onwards.

Nakajima B5N - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The B5N actually saw combat in China and far eastern Pacific areas several years before 7 December 41.

It was actually slated to be replaced by '41/'42, but it's replacement never happened, so it soldiered on 'til the end.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The B5N actually saw combat in China and far eastern Pacific areas several years before 7 December 41.

It was actually slated to be replaced by '41/'42, but it's replacement never happened, so it soldiered on 'til the end.

Right, I was just talking about our "interaction" with it. It was most certainly used from carriers as well as land-bases -- just ask the Lexington, Yorktown, or Hornet, which all ate torpedoes from that vulture, and all those birds flown from IJN carriers.

 

[GrauGeist]

Right, I was just talking about our "interaction" with it. It was most certainly used from carriers as well as land-bases -- just ask the Lexington, Yorktown, or Hornet, which all ate torpedoes from that vulture, and all those birds flown from IJN carriers.

Gotcha - add to that, one of the Hiryu's B5Ns delivered the kill-shot on the Arizona, too.

 

[Admiral Beez]

No, the B5N is the Kate torpedo bomber, used from Pearl Harbor onwards.

Dammit, I was thinking of the B5M Mabel. As a land-based aircraft, did it really have folding wings as Wiki claims? Then again, are these guys confused by B5N and B5M as well?

Given Mitsubishi's prominence in 1930's carrier aircraft with the A5M fighter and B2M torpedo bomber, I wonder why except for the A6M, the IJNAS relied on other firms, mainly Nakajima and Aichi for their CAGs. Why was there no Mitsubishi torpedo or dive bomber in the Kido Butai? And given their prominence, did Nakajima bid for the A6M's contract? A navalized Nakajima Ki-43 would do the trick, provided the appearance/spec was altered to avoid provoking the IJA/IJN rivalry. I've read that Nakajima ended up being the main mass-producer of the Zero under license, building more Zeros than Mitsubishi did.

A rare picture of a Japanese assembly line at the Nakajima Plant in Ota, Japan showing Mitsubishi A6M2 "Zero" Model 21s nearing completion.

 

[Frog]

I think the French Surcouf is a contender carrying a floatplane and being armed with two eight inch guns.

The plane for the Surcouf was a Marcel Besson MB-411 : except for close range reconnaissance and guns adjustment,with a max speed of 200 kph, it would be seriously doubtful for any other role (pic from Passion Air 1940 site) :

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Given Mitsubishi's prominence in 1930's carrier aircraft with the A5M fighter and B2M torpedo bomber, I wonder why except for the A6M, the IJNAS relied on other firms, mainly Nakajima and Aichi for their CAGs. Why was there no Mitsubishi torpedo or dive bomber in the Kido Butai?

I suspect Mitsubishi were kept busy updating and cranking out Zeros.