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JoblinTheGoblin
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- May 13, 2023
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Some Western powers like Spain, Italy, and Russia/USSR did experience atrociously disastrous defeats in the early 20th century, and to some degree, beyond, but their scientific and industrial bases, less so for the former—if Spain had any advantage at all—appeared to edge out over Japan's, especially in rocketry (primarily Soviet in this case) and jet technology (primarily the Caproni Campini N.1 here), which are the most relevant to the topic of WWII aviation. Japan's specialties, meanwhile, were generally refinements of existing technologies, without much innovation, though the long lance torpedo, and perhaps the Type 91 torpedo, looks promising. I guess I can't disagree on the performance of the Japanese navy early on, though the track record of their carriers is underwhelming given their vaunted naval aviation.I think you can cite remarkable disasters for all 'western' powers, insome area or another. Japan did poorly in armor and large land battles, but were rather good at sinking ships in the beginning of the pacific war. In surface combat sometimes heavily outnumbered. They had some specialities, and produced what is generally considered the best flying boat of ww2 (operational, albeit in trivial numbers). That partly was because they prioritized their best engines for those, whereas few flying boats of the other nations used more than second tier engines for flying boats. What you excel at is also a result of the choices you make.
So the La-7 is still faster than any front-line Japanese aircraft?. The G.56, and the P.119, also appeared to have rather fast speeds,. I must add that I was relying on memory of high-end speeds for the Russian aircraft and for the G.55 series based on some rather dubious sources, ones that one might be able to guess.Yak-9 was mostly 560-570 km/h for the best part of the war. MiG-3 botched it's prospects due to the faulty canopy retracting mechanism, that meant the ability to quickly remove it in case of danger was suspect, that in return meant that MiG was flown with open canopy, with the major speed penalty. Weak firepower necessitated installation of gondola HMGs or rockets, either of that meant that actual speed took another hit.
Italian late-war aircraft have had more of a problem of paltry numbers produced? Speed interval was between 620 and 640 km/h, the small MC.205V being the fastest of the lot.
Wanted to reply to this point, but forgot to. It is one specific weather condition though, so should it taken into consideration in this discussion? Whether or not this flight took place and that speed was achieved, there existed faster aircraft before and some months after.As far as the record flight goes. A Hawker Hurricane did about 640kph in 1938? (one hell of a tail wind an it was planned to take advantage of it)
The flight by the Hurricane was put out in the press. They sure weren't putting out the real figures pre and early warWanted to reply to this point, but forgot to. It is one specific weather condition though, so should it taken into consideration in this discussion? Whether or not this flight took place and that speed was achieved, there existed faster aircraft before and some months after.
GO to item 7 in the report.Even the people that are otherwise very eager to flag-wave with US flag will find hard to prove that P-38 did 680 kn/h before 1943, let alone in 1939.
When i said that everybody experienced disastrous defeats, I meant everybody. USA and Great Britain included, you already hinted at Savo island. Sure, it wasn't a disastrous strategic defeat, but neither was khalkin Gol. Unless you believe the future of Imperial japan lay in Sibiria. To add a bit of context on that battle, it was fought by a somewhat rogue fraction of the Japanese army without the full support of the IJN. I don't think it probable that full support could have resulted in a victory, but I belong in the camp that think that not starting a full scale war with the Soviet Union was one of the better strategic decisions made by the Japanese. Yes, it could (maybe) have resulted in the collapse of the USSR cought in a two front war, but the Japanese cold not, and probably did not, trust Hitler. Or that he would knock out France in 1940, a true strategic disaster for western powers.Some Western powers like Spain, Italy, and Russia/USSR did experience atrociously disastrous defeats in the early 20th century, and to some degree, beyond, but their scientific and industrial bases, less so for the former—if Spain had any advantage at all—appeared to edge out over Japan's, especially in rocketry (primarily Soviet in this case) and jet technology (primarily the Caproni Campini N.1 here), which are the most relevant to the topic of WWII aviation. Japan's specialties, meanwhile, were generally refinements of existing technologies, without much innovation, though the long lance torpedo, and perhaps the Type 91 torpedo, looks promising. I guess I can't disagree on the performance of the Japanese navy early on, though the track record of their carriers is underwhelming given their vaunted naval aviation.
La-7 was faster than anything Japanese had, bar the full-spec Ki-84. It was also a bit weakly armed for the standards of the day, and was short ranged - the 'no free lunch' rule applies as ever.So the La-7 is still faster than any front-line Japanese aircraft?. The G.56, and the P.119, also appeared to have rather fast speeds,. I must add that I was relying on memory of high-end speeds for the Russian aircraft and for the G.55 series based on some rather dubious sources, ones that one might be able to guess.
The Me-262 was intended to either be an interceptor or a "ground attack / bomber" aircraft, from what I've heard, so it may not be the best example to use in this case.Although there is a general agreement in this thread that performance trumps manoeuvrability, defeating more manoeuvrable fighters could be difficult. I found some (translated) comments from Johannes Steinhoff at Johannes Steinhoff – First Aero Squadron Foundation ™ on fighting against Yak-9s...
"...Me 262?"
I suppose that every strength in an aircraft's design demands the sacrifice of another.La-7 was faster than anything Japanese had, bar the full-spec Ki-84. It was also a bit weakly armed for the standards of the day, and was short ranged - the 'no free lunch' rule applies as ever.
From what I've read on the Ki-83, the general consensus is that the prototype Ki-83, in good condition, was agile around 650kph in Japanese tests, and exceeded that number to reach a speed of 686kph, if I remember correctly—and there's yet another ((100x + 80) + ((6X_n + 2) mod 25))* speed, if is a real figure, that is—and 704kph in later tests, though documentation, is, if not destroyed, difficult to find, apparently, for both the Japanese and American tests, the latter was where the >750kph figure was supposedly achieved, maybe. Seriously, I've even seen 580kph for the aircraft of other nations, like some Spitfire variant for instance, never mind Japanese aircraft.G.56 was a prototype, powered by a foreign engine. P.119 was also a prototype. Same as the Ki-83 that was still in the prototype stage, that supposedly was good for 438-470 mph (I'm not going to put my had in the fire to prove any of these speed figures, FWIW).
I've seen 650kph listed as the maximum speed for the G.55 in certain place(s) on the internet.Care to elaborate the G.55 tidbit from there?
The Ki-44 is an example of a small frontline Japanese fighter, though the engine of the later variant was weaker than, say, the La-7's, by a few hundred hp. It was rather tall, and had roughly similar wing-loading to the La-7 despite its lower wing area, it seems.The Soviet aircraft were usually closer in size to a 109 than to anything the Japanese were using.
Actual size (drag) of the aircraft is more important than weight for speed. Weight starts becoming more important than size when figuring climb.
If you want a 220-230sq ft wing you pay for it in drag vs 175-190sq ft wings.
Information on the Fiat G.55/56/59 can found or guessed at using the post war foreign sales examples. The G.55A was a post war G.55 using left-over DB 605 engines. The later G-59 used commercial Merlin T-24 engines. The T-24 engines had a lower FTH than the DB 605s but they were supposed to be good for 368mph at about 20,000ft (sources differ) but that is with four 20mm Hispano guns sticking out of the wings and possible bomb and rocket rocket racks (1950s style). They got the two seat G.59-4b trainer up to 380mph.
German soldiers seemed to be able to achieve more favorable kill ratios throughout much of the war, maybe less so against the forces of the Western Allies, in contrast to Japanese soldiers, and while there have been various reasons considered for the higher mortality rates of the Japanese soldier, the most damning reason is poor equipment and logistics, the former reliant on the latter, and both reduce the credibility of Japan as a major industrial power for the period. Late-war Japanese forces, from what I can remember, displayed competence against overwhelming Soviet forces, especially when the Soviets attempted naval invasions, but by that time Japan's already inferior forces were in freefall. I've heard that that the Japanese army of the 1930s would have potentially struggled against even the contemporary Polish army, the same nation that was overrun by German forces in a few months. It is a highly speculative scenario that I would follow your advice and discuss further in the "What If" sub-forum, if the inherent absurdities could be tolerated.Sure, it wasn't a disastrous strategic defeat, but neither was khalkin Gol. Unless you believe the future of Imperial japan lay in Sibiria. To add a bit of context on that battle, it was fought by a somewhat rogue fraction of the Japanese army without the full support of the IJN. I don't think it probable that full support could have resulted in a victory, but I belong in the camp that think that not starting a full scale war with the Soviet Union was one of the better strategic decisions made by the Japanese. Yes, it could (maybe) have resulted in the collapse of the USSR cought in a two front war, but the Japanese cold not, and probably did not, trust Hitler. Or that he would knock out France in 1940, a true strategic disaster for western powers.
The United States had the world's largest economy, was home of numerous inventions, including powered flight itself, and was one of the victorious powers in WWI, not to mention its growing cultural influence on the world stage. In fact, the US had been ordering hundreds, if not thousands, of jets like the F-80 for the war over Japan. Ki-84s (likely some newer, slower(?) model), A7Ms, Ki-102s, and maybe a few Kikka and J8Ms (all in various states of maintenance), if they had managed to survive against the already numerous Allied props and superprops, against hundreds of jets. A slaughter. The future prospects of the Japanese Empire were dire, even if somehow, their conquest of China was accepted. An increasingly outdated military against a potential Soviet threat, even in the wake of a Brest-Litovsk-esque treaty (total German victory was almost impossible), and an increasingly hostile American and Commonwealth once they come to their senses. I haven't even touched upon radar or nuclear weapons. Granted further discussion can only continue in a different thread in the appropriate section.I don't agree that rocketry and jet technology were in any way decisive in ww2, even then it seem the USA was not in the forefront. It was still a great power. They became vey important after, and could have during if the war was prolonged. But that war we discuss in the what ifs.
We can come up with specialities, and argue that this or that speciality was telling while others were merely second rate power adaptions of existing technology. We can also focus on prototypes which, whether the publicised data were correct or not, would never have worked in a fighting environment. But like jet power, that is concentrating on the spectacular rather than the in practical terms significant.
I'll grant you that the axis did just that. Apart from the miscalculations as to the speed with which they could finish their campaigns, and the lack of resilience of decadent soft regimes, they believed they could also make up for numerical inferiority with general technological superiority. Instead they had some great achivements, a lot of average ones and their share of the truly dismal. I don't recon japan was worse of than Italy, though Germany overall achieved more. In view of their industrial base they should be expected to.
It's still merely a variant of a fowler flap, and isn't counted as a distinct flap type in its own right.Pertinent to this thread may be the 'butterfly flaps' of Nakajima. It's not rocket science, but the successful installment in combat aircraft gave one edge to aircraft without paying in full the usual speed penalty for greater manouverability. I'm not saying that the Ki-84 was a superplane exceeding everything the allies had, but in good finish it was a worthy opponent. The usually poor finish was a result of the war going badly for a long time now, not any inherent weakness apart from not being big enough. And some very bad decisions, like fighting the worlds largest industrial power and the most populous at the same time. And the Commonwealth now they were at it.
Ya' think?Well we are talking WW2 fighter aircraft in combat, not civilians pottering around in Cessna's.
The Me-262 was intended to either be an interceptor or a "ground attack / bomber" aircraft, from what I've heard, so it may not be the best example to use in this case.
I suppose that every strength in an aircraft's design demands the sacrifice of another.
From what I've read on the Ki-83, the general consensus is that the prototype Ki-83, in good condition, was agile around 650kph in Japanese tests, and exceeded that number to reach a speed of 686kph, if I remember correctly—and there's yet another ((100x + 80) + ((6X_n + 2) mod 25))* speed, if is a real figure, that is—and 704kph in later tests, though documentation, is, if not destroyed, difficult to find, apparently, for both the Japanese and American tests, the latter was where the >750kph figure was supposedly achieved, maybe. Seriously, I've even seen 580kph for the aircraft of other nations, like some Spitfire variant for instance, never mind Japanese aircraft.
The P.119 seems superior to the Ki-61-ii prototype, even with the latter weighing less and featuring a similarly powerful but liquid-cooled (and foreign) engine. The former even appears to be the larger aircraft based on the specifications I have at hand, although the novel engine layout might have given it an advantage, I'm not sure. The propeller? This comparison paints a brighter picture of Italy's wartime aviation industry, unless I'm wrong, which I could very well be.
I've seen 650kph listed as the maximum speed for the G.55 in certain place(s) on the internet.
The Ki-44 is an example of a small frontline Japanese fighter, though the engine of the later variant was weaker than, say, the La-7's, by a few hundred hp. It was rather tall, and had roughly similar wing-loading to the La-7 despite its lower wing area, it seems.
German soldiers seemed to be able to achieve more favorable kill ratios throughout much of the war, maybe less so against the forces of the Western Allies, in contrast to Japanese soldiers, and while there have been various reasons considered for the higher mortality rates of the Japanese soldier, the most damning reason is poor equipment and logistics, the former reliant on the latter, and both reduce the credibility of Japan as a major industrial power for the period. Late-war Japanese forces, from what I can remember, displayed competence against overwhelming Soviet forces, especially when the Soviets attempted naval invasions, but by that time Japan's already inferior forces were in freefall. I've heard that that the Japanese army of the 1930s would have potentially struggled against even the contemporary Polish army, the same nation that was overrun by German forces in a few months. It is a highly speculative scenario that I would follow your advice and discuss further in the "What If" sub-forum, if the inherent absurdities could be tolerated.
The United States had the world's largest economy, was home of numerous inventions, including powered flight itself, and was one of the victorious powers in WWI, not to mention its growing cultural influence on the world stage. In fact, the US had been ordering hundreds, if not thousands, of jets like the F-80 for the war over Japan. Ki-84s (likely some newer, slower(?) model), A7Ms, Ki-102s, and maybe a few Kikka and J8Ms (all in various states of maintenance), if they had managed to survive against the already numerous Allied props and superprops, against hundreds of jets. A slaughter. The future prospects of the Japanese Empire were dire, even if somehow, their conquest of China was accepted. An increasingly outdated military against a potential Soviet threat, even in the wake of a Brest-Litovsk-esque treaty (total German victory was almost impossible), and an increasingly hostile American and Commonwealth once they come to their senses. I haven't even touched upon radar or nuclear weapons. Granted further discussion can only continue in a different thread in the appropriate section.
I will admit that Japanese military technology was on par with, if not superior in some areas, colonial and Pacific forces in Asia—though this advantage primarily arose from Allied arrogance and negligence, and was largely superior to the foreign-dependent militaries of Asia. Japan also appeared to be catching up to, and exceeding Italian aviation technology at times, as the latter generally utilised German engines in achieving higher performance. However, Italy still appears to have had a stronger scientific tradition than Japan. Enrico Fermi was an Italian, and a professor in Rome at that.
It's still merely a variant of a fowler flap, and isn't counted as a distinct flap type in its own right.
* Unsure if the random generator here is good, but it exists only to express my feelings on the matter.
Japan faced some immense challenges in WW2, but so did every country. The US lagged behind in many aspects of weapons design during the war, some of which took years to rectify. The Mk 13 and 14 torpedoes for example. Many early US aircraft designs such as the F2A, P-39, TBD Devastator also did poorly, and many of the aircraft which ultimately had significant success were deeply flawed and / or had major, extended teething problems (P-38, P-40, P-47, F4U, SB2C) and / or relied heavily on technology transfers from the UK (P-51). The F6F and B-29 were more successful but came relatively late in the war.
I would say your summation above is a breathtaking under-estimate of Japanese military technology and capabilities. Aside from destroying the US surface fleet at Peal Harbor, they conquered Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Philippines with a swiftness that shocked the world, and their navy proved equally devastating - major setbacks such as Midway not withstanding - well into 1943. They were relatively slow to develop radar (though they did have it) but the fact that their torpedoes worked, unlike ours, and the skill they demonstrated at night combat meant that they were extremely dangerous in war at sea. Their aircraft like the D3A were highly effective and sunk many US ships while the A6M and Ki-43 took a very heavy toll on Allied aircraft and remained quite dangerous for allied pilots through the mid-war.
For a relatively small island they held their own remarkably well. The late war Japanese aircraft designs may have come too late but they were hardly inferior. A6M, Ki-43, Ki-61 and Ki-44 (as well as the D3A) were competitive designs into the mid war. J2M, N1K1, Ki-84, Ki-67, B7N, Ki-83 etc. were all highly competitive, world-class designs through the end of the war, they just didn't make enough of them. Experimental planes like the J7W were innovative and high performing, and they were working on jets derived from German designs (see the Kikka). Nor was the P-80 necessarily a war winner, in spite of being a jet. What ultimately did-in Japan was lack of resources and the scale of production in the US, not inferior technology. Having their code broken didn't help either, but the same thing happened to the Germans.
It is certainly possible to overstate the excellence of the Japanese military in WW2 but it's quite possible to understate it as well. In design terms, the only thing they really lagged at in the later war was was tanks and maybe mobile artillery.
Well, sure. But a couple of responses to that -
1) They seemed to make them work, including against US and British troops. Soviets too during the early war, even when they lost Kallinin Gol.
2) Most everyone in early ww2 at least was using fairly primitive handguns and machine guns. Mostly WW I vintage. Including for defensive guns on planes. Lewis guns, Vickers guns, the M1919, none were really outstanding. The Soviet, French and Italian guns ranged from dismal to not so great. The Bren was pretty good (a Czech design). And the Americans really liked their M2. But really the only truly outstanding LMG / MMG I think was the MG 34/ 42 series right?
The US had a good rifle in the Garand but most of the rifles being used around the world in the early war were great big bolt action bohemoths with five round magazines. The Germans eventually had some good and innovative designs, the US had the Thompson, M1911 and BAR which had some utility. The Soviets had their quite formidable PPsh.
But I guess as bad as some of the Japanese crew served weapons were, they seemed to make it work most of the time. The only glaring hole in their arsenal that I see is really their tanks, maybe artillery I'm not certain.
I would be interested in how people here rank the CAS systems for each major country in WW2 - British, US (navy vs. army), Soviet, German, Japanese (navy vs. army), Italian, Finnish, French whatever. Maybe for early vs. late war (with some participants not around in the later period).
The big question and probably the most controversial in here, is how effective was the Soviet CAS. The Sturmovik, the Pe-2, the fighters armed with rockets. A lot of people say they weren't very... but somebody wrecked a lot of German tanks on the Eastern Front.
I'm not too sure anybody says the late-war Soviet CAS system was ineffective. Early on, yes. Later, no way.
The Soviets went from being shot down in droves to having a sky that German aircraft were not very safe in. At the end, their Air Force was a good as it needed to be to defeat the Nazi Luftwaffe. And, they absorbed a LOT of the Luftwaffe's strength, not just a small amount.
I got to try the MG3 when I was in the Army. The Bundeswehr guys were amazing with it. They could coax a single round out of our (terrible, IMO) M-60s. On the tripod they could hit targets 1 km away. Supposedly our M-60 was derived from the MG 42 but it didn't seem to work nearly as well, less accurate, about half the ROF, jammed constantly no matter how clean etc.. The Belgian FN one (which I think is what we use now?) was good - reliable and accurate compared to ours - but not as scary as that MG3. We tried the PK too, which didn't have the range of ours but seeemd to weigh half as much as the M60, and never jammed that I saw.
Our of our kit, everyone loved the M2 and the Mark 19, including me, but what impressed me the most was probably the little 60mm mortars. Those things are scary. In terms of the size of the machine vs. lethality, I'd say it's pretty high up there.
US artillery doctrine and systems were probably the most effective part of the US war machine and certainly the best artillery in WW2. But the Japanese certainly had their strengths as well as US soldiers and marines experienced at Iwo Jima and Okinawa etc., back to the Philippines. The Soviets were very good with rockets and by the war's end, had a lot of very heavy guns. The British worked out probably the late war's best close air support system which we also adapted. The Germans had the best early war CAS and certainly quite effective artillery and very, very good AT guns. But eventually it all fell apart under that Soviet sledgehammer.
Interesting to learn about the Japanese artillery. I would assume their doctrine would differ from ours in part due to a different relationship with supply and abundance of materiel.