Me-109F Airframe a dud. What replaces it?

stona · Mar 29, 2013

Historically Tank started to look at the possibilities of a DB (or Jumo) powered Fw 190 early in 1941. The final version historically didn'y see operational service until late 1944. I reckon,in your scenario,mid 1943 is possible.
It took from November 1941,when the decision to go with a Jumo 213 A motor was taken until September 1942 before V 17 (W.Nr.0039,CF+OX) actually flew. You seem to have a completely unrealistic concept of the time these things take to develop.
What are you going to do in the mean time?

As for your comments about the relative merits of the Fw 190 A and Bf 109 F,this isn't the thread for that debate.

As for your comments about the RAF in 1941,I won't dignify them with a reply. You might like to read these.

Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War, Vol. 1: Operational Losses, Aircraft and Crews 1939-1941: Norman L. R. Franks: 9781857802863: Amazon.com: Books

Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War: Volume 2. Operational Losses: Aircraft and Crews 1942-1943: 1942-43 v. 2: Amazon.co.uk: Norman L. R. Franks: Books

Cheers

Steve

GregP · Mar 29, 2013

Hey Dave,

I like the Arsenal VG-33 (12Y-31), the VG-36 (12Y-51), the VG-39 (12Zars-15), and the study for the VG-50 (Allison V-1710). The speeds went from 560 kph to 590 kph to 625 kph and the Allison unit was never built. I think they made 19 VG-33's and 1 each of the other two before falling to the Germans. The armament was kind of likgt for the first two but was decent in the VG-39.

I also like the Renard R-37 (Gnome-Rhone) and R-38 (Merlin II). It could have been adapted for the DB 601E and flew in 1939. The R-40 is another possibility, had a 12 ycrs Type 2 engine, and had a pressure cabin. It was in existence in time for the timeline.

It might have been possible to adapt the Bloch 150, 151, 152, or 155 for a DB 601E, too. The Germans captured the MB.700 and destroyed the prototype.

The Caproni-Vizzola F.4 had a DB 601 in it and flew in 1940 and had a speed of 550 kph. Another possibility is the Caproni-Vizzola F.6 which flew in 1941 and had a speed of 569 kph ... but it had a DB 605 in it.

A very strong candidate is the Dewoitine D.520 wich had a 12Y-49 engine but could have been adapted for the DB 601E.

In real life, if the Bf 109F had failed, I think the Heinkel He 112 might have been their choice regardless of the possibly better potential planes from their allies if only due to the saved time. Hitler wasn't noted for his patience and Blitzkreig probably would not have waited for protracted development.

davebender · Mar 29, 2013

I suspect you are right.

He-112B was a strong contender vs Me-109 during 1937. It was production ready during 1940 and Heinkel had a small production line in operation to fill orders for Hungary, Romania, Spain and Finland. Increasing He-112B production to Me-109 level (about 200 per month during 1941) would be the quickest way to replace the failed Me-109F.

Long term prospects for continued He-112B production would depend on how well the design ages. Heinkel might radically improve the airframe just as Messerschmitt did historically with Me-109F/Me-109G/Me-109K. Otherwise something new such as Me-309 or Macchi C.205 is likely to replace He-112B during 1943. In any case the aircraft will be DB605 powered because that's what Germany had lots of by 1943.

GregP · Mar 29, 2013

I really wonder about the Caproni-Vizzola F.4 since it HAD a DB601and flew in 1940. It might be a "drop in" replacement ahd the Bf 109F failed to meet expectation and could have been a FAST changeover with the target engine already in place and flying. Development might have been VERY short.

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2013

The He112 was up-engined in Romanian service and performed well...

tomo pauk · Mar 30, 2013

GG, any details about up-engined He-112?

davebender · Mar 30, 2013

Heinkel He-112B The Forgotten Fighter.
Worth a look. Profiles show how design evolved from He-112V1 to He-112B. Latest version looks rather modern.

stona · Mar 30, 2013

I've always liked the Heinkel fighter but what evidence is there that it could have matched the performance of The Bf 109 F,or,more to the point,the Spitfire V?
Cheers
Steve

GrauGeist · Mar 30, 2013

tomo pauk said:
GG, any details about up-engined He-112?

The Romanians (along with several other nations) were interested in the He112 and they submitted a purchase request. When they recieved thier initial aircraft, they did a fly-off against the IAR80 to determine which was going to equip the FARR...the He112 came up short of the IAR80 (which won the contract and went into production) and the remaining He112s went into a support role.

Now that I am thinking about it, it may have been the Hungarians that upfitted thier He112 with the Gnome-Rhone Mistral-Major radial. (1,000 hp). I'll have to go look it up to be sure.

But that is an interesting thought, putting a radial engine in the 112, though I would think it would effect the aerodynamics of the airframe as opposed to an inline

davebender · Mar 30, 2013

what evidence is there that it could have matched the performance of The Bf 109 F

He-112B development ended during 1938. So it's impossible to know for sure what the aircraft might have become with additional development.

We know He-112B aerial performance matched Me-109 performance during 1938. Both aircraft had max level speed of about 350mph when powered by early model DB601 engine. Several pilots thought He-112B handling superior to the Me-109. He-112B had superior landing gear and a superior canopy. He-112B had wing mounted 20MM cannon during 1938. Early model He-112 was expensive to produce but Heinkel continually refined the airframe and some of those improvements must have been for the purpose of lowering production cost.

IMO Heinkel deserves a chance to prepare a DB601E powered He-112 prototype for the flight competition. Then let the chips fall where they may.

stona · Mar 30, 2013

davebender said:
He-112B development ended during 1938. So it's impossible to know for sure what the aircraft might have become with additional development.

So the answer is no then.

The He 112s that actually did exist were low,slow and arguably lightly armed compared to the then extant version of the Spitfire which doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Cheers

Steve

davebender · Mar 30, 2013

Perhaps Galland wasn't joking about wanting Spitfires for the Luftwaffe. Germany could reverse engineer a captured aircraft and power it with DB601E engine.

stona · Mar 30, 2013

davebender said:
View attachment 229352

Perhaps Galland wasn't joking about wanting Spitfires for the Luftwaffe. Germany could reverse engineer a captured aircraft and power it with DB601E engine.

Very cool,I'd forgotten about that one

Apparently it performed very well too. The Germans were impressed with the Spitfire's radiators if memory serves. The engine installation was essentially from a Bf 110.

Cheers

Steve

riacrato · Mar 30, 2013

stona said:
So the answer is no then.

The He 112s that actually did exist were low,slow and arguably lightly armed compared to the then extant version of the Spitfire which doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Cheers

Steve

Why would anyone want to produce an He 112 in lieu of a failed Bf 109 F, when the much better He 100 D is already available at that time?

tomo pauk · Mar 30, 2013

GrauGeist said:
The Romanians (along with several other nations) were interested in the He112 and they submitted a purchase request. When they recieved thier initial aircraft, they did a fly-off against the IAR80 to determine which was going to equip the FARR...the He112 came up short of the IAR80 (which won the contract and went into production) and the remaining He112s went into a support role.

Now that I am thinking about it, it may have been the Hungarians that upfitted thier He112 with the Gnome-Rhone Mistral-Major radial. (1,000 hp). I'll have to go look it up to be sure.

But that is an interesting thought, putting a radial engine in the 112, though I would think it would effect the aerodynamics of the airframe as opposed to an inline

Hungarians did it, indeed:

Weiss WM-23 Ezustnyil - fighter

davebender · Mar 30, 2013

SAAB aircraft that never were

J 19 - Saab L-12 A Swedish "Zero"
This fighter was meant to replace our Gloster Gladiators. The project was worked on by Saab, in collaboration with US engineers here to aid with licence production of our Northrop 8-A 1:s and NA-16-4 M:s. It was presented to the Ministry on Sep 4:th 1939, and work must have been started at least a year earlier.
What stopped this project was in fact the outbreak of the war, as the intended engine was to be a Bristol Taurus II, giving 1400 hp with 100-octane fuel. The British had to concentrate on known engines (and the Taurus would have been overweight and underpowered anyway), and as a replacement P&W Twin Wasp was considered (and well, the US didn't want to sell us any engines at that time). Also, Saab had to concentrate on B 17 and B 18, so there was never even a wind tunnel model built.

It looked very much like a Zero, and was an all-metal construction with fabric covered control surfaces. Span 10.5 m; Empty weight 2015 kg; Operational weight 2690 kg; Max speed 605 km/h; Engine 1065 hp Bristol Taurus; Armament four wing-mounted 13.2 mm guns and possibly two 8 mm MG:s on top of the engine.

Impossible to say how this would perform but Germany could not go wrong by paying for a J19 prototype and providing Saab with a DB601E engine to power it.

Me-109F Airframe a dud. What replaces it?

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