Me-110 Underrated

[Stig1207]

As far as claims go, it's hard to estimate for Anzio because unlike at say, Sardinia, both Spitfires and P-40s were operating over the same battlefield simultaneously. But Stg1207 is making assumptions - you have several days where Spitfire pilots made 3 or 4 claims, and P-40 pilots made 10 or 15 claims, actual German losses were 5 or 6 aircraft and he assumes all of the P-40 claims were 100% imaginary and all of the Spitfire claims were 100% accurate. I think that's unlikely.

But what we certainly don't see are large numbers of P-40s getting slaughtered in action against Fw 190s or late model 109s at the time of Anzio, or against MC 205 or 202 fighters. I know of one incident in Feb 1943 in which the 33rd FG got massacred by some Fw 190s of JG 2, but that was their first encounter with the 190

I am not assuming anything, just repeating what is written MAW IV, and neither were the P-40 claims 100% imaginary nor the Spitfire claims 100% accurate; but you know that, we've both read the same book.

From memory, there don't seem to be a lot of encounters between P-40 units (USAAF and RAF) and JG2 in the MTO.

 

[GrauGeist]

From memory, there don't seem to be a lot of encounters between P-40 units (USAAF and RAF) and JG2 in the MTO.

Mostly because the bulk of Jg2 was stationed in France until 1944 - only a few elements (II gruppe) were sent to North Africa in '42/'43 and they operated under Jg53's authority.

 

[Stig1207]

Mostly because the bulk of Jg2 was stationed in France until 1944 - only a few elements (II gruppe) were sent to North Africa in '42/'43 and they operated under Jg53's authority.

I/Jg 2 also operated over southern France (Corsica?) and in Italy late winter / spring 1944.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Here is a quick summary of FW 190 units serving in the Mediterranean:

Fighter Units
- II./J.G. 2 arrived in Tunisia in early November 1942, and left for France in mid-March 1943
- I./J.G. 2 arrived in southern France in January 1944, then moved to Italy in late-February 1944. It returned to southern France in April 1944, and then back to northern France. The 4. Staffel had Bf 109s, and the Gruppenstab, 1., 2. and 3. Staffeln had the FW 190.
- Jagdgruppe Süd operated some FW 190s over southern France between late-1943 and June 1944, before moving to Germany

Reconnaissance Units
- N.A.Gr. 13 arrived in Tunisia in November 1942, and returned to France in December 1942
- N.A.Gr. 13 operated FW 190s from southern France in 1944, flying off the Italian and Corsican coasts

Fighter-Bomber Units
- III./Z.G. 2 arrived in Tunisia in early November 1942, and was re-designated III./S.K.G. 10 on 1 December 1942. It subsequently served over Tunisia, Sicily and Italy, and left Italy in October 1943
- Stab Sch.G. 2 arrived in Tunisia mid-March 1943, and subsequently served over Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and Italy. It was re-designated Stab S.G. 4 in October 1943, and left Italy for the Eastern Front in early July 1944
- I./Sch.G. 2 converted from the Bf 109 to the FW 190 in April-May 1943, served over Sicily and Sardinia, and left for Austria in August 1943
- II./Sch.G. 2 arrived in Tunisia mid-March 1943, subsequently served over Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica and Italy, and was re-designated I./S.G. 4 in October 1943. It then served over Italy, and left for the Eastern Front in early July 1944
- Stab S.K.G. 10 arrived in Sicily in mid-June 1943, served over Sicily, and left for the Western Front in September 1943
- II./S.K.G. 10 arrived in Sicily in mid-June 1943, and served over Italy until re-designation as II./S.G. 4 in October 1943. It then served over Italy, until leaving for the Eastern Front in early July 1944
- IV./S.K.G. 10 arrived in Sicily in mid-June 1943, and served over Sicily and Italy until leaving for the Western Front in August 1943

There were no FW 190 fighters operating over Anzio in the first month, only S.G. 4 fighter-bombers.

As for Bf 110s over the Bay of Biscay, on 8 October 1943 there were three engagements between II./Z.G. 1 and Allied fighters. Spitfires were sent out on dedicated anti-Bf 110 patrols, and eight Bf 110s were shot down, with two others landing with damage. In return, the RAF lost two Spitfires destroyed and one damaged. II./Z.G. 1 left France for Austria in October/November 1943.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[Schweik]

So there were FW fighter units as well as Jabos

 

[Glider]

So there were FW fighter units as well as Jabos

If I remember correctly only one and they had a significant impact on the allied losses doing far better than the Fw190 GA units. Their training and experience being the main reason for thier relative success

 

[Schweik]

JG 2 came in with a bang in early 43, and did some serious damage on a couple of days, but I don't remember any major impact when they were (apparently) there again in 1944. I know that one of them killed Antoine de Saint-Exupéry in his P-38 / F-5B. If they were in Italy in Feb 44 then it's a safe bet that they tangled with P-40s of the 79th FG at some point or other.

 

[Acheron]

I know that one of them killed Antoine de Saint-Exupéry in his P-38 / F-5B. If they were in Italy in Feb 44 then it's a safe bet that they tangled with P-40s of the 79th FG at some point or other.

According to wikipedia, the exact circumstances of de Saint-Exupéry's death are still unknown, is it not up to date?

 

[Schweik]

It's still debated, and probably always will be, but like many others I believe the last guy who claimed to have shot him down was probably correct.

 

[Milosh]

Bases of I./JG2 from the time it started to receive Fw-190s,

10.5.42 - 8.11.42 Tricqueville***** Bf 109F/G, Fw 190A
8.11.42 - 25.1.43 Marseilles-MarignaneBf 109G, Fw 190A
1.43 - 3.43 St. Brieuc
3.43 - 6.43 Tricqueville
6.43 -Evreux & Beaumont-le-Roger
11.43 - 1.44 Conches******Fw 190A
1.44 - 20.2.44 Aix*******Fw 190A
20.2.44 - 24.2.44 ViterboFw 190A
24.2.44 - 8.3.44 ViglianelloFw 190A
8.3.44 - 26.3.44 CastiglioneFw 190A
26.3.44 - 8.4.44 DiavoloFw 190A8.
4.44 - 12.5.44 AixFw 190A
12.5.44 - 7.6.44 Cormeilles-en-VexinFw 190A
7.6.44 - 13.7.44 CreilFw 190A
13.7.44 - 8.44 HusumFw 190A8.
44 - 4.9.44St. TrondFw 190A
4.9.44 - 3.45 MezhausenFw 190A

Jagdgeschwader 2

 

[Milosh]

JG 2 came in with a bang in early 43, and did some serious damage on a couple of days, but I don't remember any major impact when they were (apparently) there again in 1944. I know that one of them killed Antoine de Saint-Exupéry in his P-38 / F-5B. If they were in Italy in Feb 44 then it's a safe bet that they tangled with P-40s of the 79th FG at some point or other.

There is no claim of a P-38 on 31-7-44.
http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/claims/tonywood.htm

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi,

Nick Beale has written a comprehensive study of the loss of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: Rippert and Saint-Exupéry (page 1). The German pilot who claimed to have shot him down was Horst Rippert of Jagdgruppe 200, but aside from Rippert's own post-war account, there is no evidence that he actually did so, and most of the relevant German documents survive in one form or another.

Nick has also extensively covered I./J.G. 2's service in Italy in 1944 here: JG 2 introduction, including an analysis of the unit's success.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[Schweik]

Unless something new has emerged, from what I remember the Axis records are lost or missing, and the conclusion they made against the Rippert claim is based on the idea that the US didn't intercept any radio chatter about it. Am I wrong about that?