Messerschmitt ME262 at Peenemünde?

Sergio · Jul 5, 2022

SuperAereo said:
For what is worth, the section on Peenemünde-West in this book was written by Max Mayer, who worked at the Erprobungs Gruppe E2 at the time, but I can find no mention of Kaaden (who might have had a junior role there), and certainly no mention of any Me 262. Erprobungs Gruppe E2 was in charge of testing and evaluating the Me 163, amongst other things.

Thank you for referring to Max Mayer's book, one that had escaped my previous researches. Generally speaking, I usually turn to German sources to learn about a German topic but this book may transcend this by being written in English by German sources. I have ordered a copy.

It is interesting that Kaaden is not mentioned in Mayer's book because neither is he mentioned in the Peenemünde West structure chart (copy attached) provided in Botho Stüwe's book Peenemünde West. This may be because Kaaden was not a Luftwaffe staff member but was, strictly speaking, on contract to the Luftwaffe from Henschel AG. However, this same chart does list a 'Mayer' as being a member of E2 Group and a 'Hauptmann Ingenieur Mayer' also appears on another staff list from an unknown source (!) that may interest you. Here is an extract...

I assume that 'LW' refers to the Luftleitwerk in the title. Of course, this may not be Max Mayer but another Mayer. As you will know, there were around 25,000 staff working on the overall Peenemünde site at one time.

Here's a mini biography of Max Mayer's Luftwaffe career:

MAYER, Dipl.Ing. Max. (DOB: 30.06.13). 1936 conferred with a Dipl.Ing. from the Technische Hochschule München. 21.01.44 promo to Fl.Hpt.Ing. 1944 assigned to Erprobungsstelle Karlshagen.

Source: Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries, Section L-R Version: 01.04.2022. By: Henry L. deZeng IV and Douglas G. Stankey

Download PDF: www.ww2.dk/lwoffz.html

If this bio is correct in saying that Max Mayer was assigned to Erprobungsstelle Karlshagen in 1944, that was around 3-4 months after Kaaden had left the site and transferred to Jesau airfield. Could this explain Kaaden's absence from the Mayer book or does Mayer cover the full years of Peenemünde West's history?

Sergio · Jul 5, 2022

GrauGeist said:
One of the main reasons Neuhardenberg (E-hafen) and then Peenemunde-West were utilized for rocket related programs, was because of it's secrecy.
Neuhardenberg was originally a glider field with no structures on site. The site was developed and improved over the years before operations were moved to the Luftwaffe's test facility at Peenemunde in 1937.
The actual name for Peenemunde-west, was "Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe" or in short: "Werk West".

The Wehrmacht's weapons test centre at Kummersdorf was also relocated to Peenemunde in May 1937.

Daggerr · Jul 5, 2022

Sergio said:
This accounts for the proximity of the Fi 103 test ramp at the extreme north of the Peenemünde peninsular adjacent to Peenemünde West.
..............................

Just dotting some i's :

The Fi 103 test ramp is not adjacent to Peenemünde West, but within its borders.
It's not clear from the rather poor map on page 90 of Botho Stüwe but it is from a map in another book I have.

Sergio said:
.....................................

I assume that 'LW' refers to the Luftleitwerk in the title.

LW simply means Luftwaffe, not Luftleitwerk.

SuperAereo · Jul 5, 2022

Sergio said:
Thank you for referring to Max Mayer's book, one that had escaped my previous researches. Generally speaking, I usually turn to German sources to learn about a German topic but this book may transcend this by being written in English by German sources. I have ordered a copy.

It is interesting that Kaaden is not mentioned in Mayer's book because neither is he mentioned in the Peenemünde West structure chart (copy attached) provided in Botho Stüwe's book Peenemünde West. This may be because Kaaden was not a Luftwaffe staff member but was, strictly speaking, on contract to the Luftwaffe from Henschel AG. However, this same chart does list a 'Mayer' as being a member of E2 Group and a 'Hauptmann Ingenieur Mayer' also appears on another staff list from an unknown source (!) that may interest you. Here is an extract...

View attachment 676217

I assume that 'LW' refers to the Luftleitwerk in the title. Of course, this may not be Max Mayer but another Mayer. As you will know, there were around 25,000 staff working on the overall Peenemünde site at one time.

Here's a mini biography of Max Mayer's Luftwaffe career:

MAYER, Dipl.Ing. Max. (DOB: 30.06.13). 1936 conferred with a Dipl.Ing. from the Technische Hochschule München. 21.01.44 promo to Fl.Hpt.Ing. 1944 assigned to Erprobungsstelle Karlshagen.
Source: Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries, Section L-R Version: 01.04.2022. By: Henry L. deZeng IV and Douglas G. Stankey
Download PDF: www.ww2.dk/lwoffz.html

If this bio is correct in saying that Max Mayer was assigned to Erprobungsstelle Karlshagen in 1944, that was around 3-4 months after Kaaden had left the site and transferred to Jesau airfield. Could this explain Kaaden's absence from the Mayer book or does Mayer cover the full years of Peenemünde West's history?

The book does cover the whole history of the E-Stelle. I believe that Mayer was heading E2 from 1943 onwards, but I cannot double-check right now. I am sure that you will enjoy reading the book when it arrives. Unfortunately I have had precious little time for any reading lately, due to work and personal issues.

Sergio · Jul 5, 2022

Daggerr said:
Just dotting some i's :

The Fi 103 test ramp is not adjacent to Peenemünde West, but within its borders.
It's not clear from the rather poor map on page 90 of Botho Stüwe but it is from a map in another book I have.

LW simply means Luftwaffe, not Luftleitwerk.

Of course! It's the German affinity of creating extra long words and then shortening them to an abbreviation that's fooling me. Not that I think Luftwaffe is a long word. As I get older, I mak morr mistales to!

As for the boundary of the airfield... I don't rely on Botho Stüwe for all data although it's easily the most comprehensive source I have seen thus far. I have a number of other books, some good, some not so good. The good ones include Manfred Kanetzki's Operation Crossbow and Botho Stüwe's Peenemünde West - Bilband book, the latter includes all those photos missing from his main book.

I am sure I read somewhere of the intense rivalry at Peenemünde between the Wehmacht and the Luftwaffe when it came to budgets. The fact that Walter Dornberger and von Braun (the site's founder members) effectively remaining in charge could only have biased the budget handouts towards the Wehrmacht. That's my thinking anyway.

Sergio · Jul 5, 2022

SaparotRob said:
I hope it's because there's going to be a cool surprise!

Whilst talk of Peenemünde-West is interesting for me, I am well aware that this is only half of the linkage I originally raised.

Did an ME262 ever land at Peenemünde West airfield? Was any of the Me 262's development undertaken at Peenemünde-West?

Nobody has pointed to a published source or has any memories of hearing about such an event. For these reasons, I think the answer to both questions is probably 'NO'.

At the outset of this Topic, SuparotRob hoped there would be a cool surprise! Maybe the following is that cool surprise. It is an extract from Kaaden's unpublished autobiography. Here is where he recalls the period running up to his capture by American troops at Sundhausen on about 11 April 1945. I have derived that his captors would have been members of Task Force Lovelady, 2nd Battalion (Reinf.), 33rd Armored Regiment, 3rd Armored Division. Here's what the autobiography says...

At the beginning of April 1945, the Americans were only about 50 km away. You could already hear the rumbling of their tanks. I was assigned to a 'Clean-Up' detachment at Nordhausen airport. We had orders to destroy all aircraft standing there – even some fully-fuelled Me 262s. We were told to use the 10,000 litres of kerosene stored in the aircraft's fuel tanks.

We doused the camouflage nets with fuel and ignited one machine after the other – about 30 in total and a really hellish inferno ensued. Black clouds of smoke spiralled kilometres into the sky. Some double fuselage Lightnings circled the scene but they soon flew off.

So here is another Me 262 link with Kaaden although it does not claim that he was involved with its test or development. Just its destruction. No doubt when the US Forces found the carcases of around 30 aircraft - including some Me 262s - at Nordhausen airport, it would have been recorded somewhere.

SaparotRob · Jul 5, 2022

Sergio said:
Whilst talk of Peenemünde-West is interesting for me, I am well aware that this is only half of the linkage I originally raised.

Did an ME262 ever land at Peenemünde West airfield? Was any of the Me 262's development undertaken at Peenemünde-West?

Nobody has pointed to a published source or has any memories of hearing about such an event. For these reasons, I think the answer to both questions is probably 'NO'.

At the outset of this Topic, SuparotRob hoped there would be a cool surprise! Maybe the following is that cool surprise. It is an extract from Kaaden's unpublished autobiography. Here is where he recalls the period running up to his capture by American troops at Sundhausen on about 11 April 1945. I have derived that his captors would have been members of Task Force Lovelady, 2nd Battalion (Reinf.), 33rd Armored Regiment, 3rd Armored Division. Here's what the autobiography says...

At the beginning of April 1945, the Americans were only about 50 km away. You could already hear the rumbling of their tanks. I was assigned to a 'Clean-Up' detachment at Nordhausen airport. We had orders to destroy all aircraft standing there – even some fully-fuelled Me 262s. We were told to use the 10,000 litres of kerosene stored in the aircraft's fuel tanks.

We doused the camouflage nets with fuel and ignited one machine after the other – about 30 in total and a really hellish inferno ensued. Black clouds of smoke spiralled kilometres into the sky. Some double fuselage Lightnings circled the scene but they soon flew off.

So here is another Me 262 link with Kaaden although it does not claim that he was involved with its test or development. Just its destruction. No doubt when the US Forces found the carcases of around 30 aircraft - including some Me 262s - at Nordhausen airport, it would have been recorded somewhere.

I'm just a lowly airplane nerd but I love this stuff. It may have not been the cool surprise I was hoping for (someone found an old Me-262 on a nearby farm) but this thread is gold.
The detective work done in some of these threads to solve a truly arcane aviation mystery is a joy for me to read. Your posts had cool plot twists from the outset. Interesting trying to prove something never happened when of course, there isn't any written evidence. Because it never happened.

Or did it?

Snautzer01 · Jul 5, 2022

Cant seem to find any pictures of those burned wrecks.

Snautzer01 · Jul 5, 2022

Nor mentioning of it here

GrauGeist · Jul 5, 2022

I'm surw that towards the end of the war, with German defenses falling back, there would have been various Luftwaffe fighters stationed at Nordhausen, especially since there were V weapons being manufactured at Mittelwerk and the Gustloff munitions factory nearby.

There are some fairly detailed photos on the internet of the Allied destruction of the airfield at Nordhausen.

Sergio · Jul 5, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
Nor mentioning of it here

I believe I once read that some of the Junkers engines built by the Mittelwerk factory were taken to Nordhausen airfield (only 4 to 5 miles distant) to be fitted to newly produced Me262s.

Sergio · Jul 11, 2022

If anybody is interested in how some ME262s were fitted with their Mittelwerk-built Jumo B4 engines, I have now found the source of my previous post:

"The completed aircraft were supposed to be flown out from the nearby Nordhausen airfield. Sawatzki planned to employ in the new factory 8,000 workers—7,000 of them were to come from the concentration camp reservoir."

Arming the Luftwaffe – The German Aviation Industry in World War II by Daniel Uziel Publ 2012 McFarland - ISBN 978-0-7864-6521-7 - [p249]

Albin Sawatzki was effectively in charge of the Mittlewerk underground factories. His details are available on Wikipedia.

Snautzer01 · Jul 11, 2022

GrauGeist said:
I'm surw that towards the end of the war, with German defenses falling back, there would have been various Luftwaffe fighters stationed at Nordhausen, especially since there were V weapons being manufactured at Mittelwerk and the Gustloff munitions factory nearby.

There are some fairly detailed photos on the internet of the Allied destruction of the airfield at Nordhausen.

30 burned 262 wrecks would have gotten a lot of exposure. from the g.i. to intelligence guys.

Snautzer01 · Jul 11, 2022

Sergio said:
If anybody is interested in how some ME262s were fitted with their Mittelwerk-built Jumo B4 engines, I have now found the source of my previous post:

"The completed aircraft were supposed to be flown out from the nearby Nordhausen airfield. Sawatzki planned to employ in the new factory 8,000 workers—7,000 of them were to come from the concentration camp reservoir."
Arming the Luftwaffe – The German Aviation Industry in World War II by Daniel Uziel Publ 2012 McFarland - ISBN 978-0-7864-6521-7 - [p249]

Albin Sawatzki was effectively in charge of the Mittlewerk underground factories. His details are available on Wikipedia.

production of the Jumo 004 jet engine to the forced-labor camp at Muldwerk-Muldenstein

Escuadrilla Azul · Jul 11, 2022

Kaaden sounds like Caidin. Suspicious.

GrauGeist · Jul 11, 2022

Snautzer01 said:
30 burned 262 wrecks would have gotten a lot of exposure. from the g.i. to intelligence guys.

In all the detailed Allied intelligence photos taken after attacks, I have yet to spot any large number of destroyed Me262s (either destroyed by the attacks or spiked by their ground crews).

SaparotRob · Jul 11, 2022

Could they have actually have been spirited off to the Antarctic base, via the Horten flying saucer?
They were never destroyed.

Snautzer01 · Jul 11, 2022

SaparotRob said:
Could they have actually have been spirited off the Antarctic base, via the Horten flying saucer?
They were never destroyed.

Shhhtttt thats a secret.

SuperAereo · Jul 11, 2022

Sergio said:
If anybody is interested in how some ME262s were fitted with their Mittelwerk-built Jumo B4 engines, I have now found the source of my previous post:

"The completed aircraft were supposed to be flown out from the nearby Nordhausen airfield. Sawatzki planned to employ in the new factory 8,000 workers—7,000 of them were to come from the concentration camp reservoir."
Arming the Luftwaffe – The German Aviation Industry in World War II by Daniel Uziel Publ 2012 McFarland - ISBN 978-0-7864-6521-7 - [p249]

Albin Sawatzki was effectively in charge of the Mittlewerk underground factories. His details are available on Wikipedia.

Great book.

Blixie · Jul 11, 2022

Sergio said:
Your detailed knowledge is sought to answer a couple of questions...

Is there any aspect of the development of the ME262 that connects it to Peenemünde or (more likely) Peenemünde West?

Did an ME262 ever land at Peenemünde West airfield?

In the early 90:s a serious guy who worked there during the war showed me a "Raketengestell einer Me 262" on the ground in the woods by the Peenemünde airfield. Simply. I will soon check his mails as I believe that he wrote about it too.

Messerschmitt ME262 at Peenemünde?

Airman

Attachments

Airman

Airman 1st Class

Airman

Airman

Airman

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Honourably banned

Honourably banned

Attachments

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Airman

Airman

Honourably banned

Honourably banned

Tech Sergeant

Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung

Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII

Honourably banned

Airman

Airman

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads