Mid-war (1919-40) Observation/short range recon aircraft.

A bit late but the Army ordered 3 different Observation aircraft to a specification that saw completed aircraft show up in 1940.

The Stinson O-49

Max weight 3400lbs with a 295hp engine and the winner of the contract.

The Bellanca YO-50 almost 3900lbs with a 420hp engine


The Ryan YO-51 at about 4200lbs with a 440hp engine.

It was experience during the large scale war game maneuvers that convinced the Army that the small 65hp engine Grasshoppers could do the job, mostly

The US military did buy almost 3600 Stinson L-5s during the war with an 185hp engine.

Hi
Appendix 14 of the RAF's AP3235 'Air Support' (Air Ministry 1955) has a translation of the German Air Historical Branch's 'Development of the German Ground Attack Arm and the principles governing its operations up to the end of 1944', dated 1 December 1944, the following is an extract:





I hope that is of interest.

Mike

Shortround6 said:

It was the last pre war generation of 800-1000hp 6,000-7,500lb aircraft that started some air forces to thinking that maybe the army co-operation aircraft were getting a bit too big and expensive.

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Indeed, and the British found this out the hard way, realising during the Battle of France that the Lysander was too big and too fast for artillery spotting and liaison, with commentators coming to that conclusion in action. A large number were lost during the Battle of France, and with the arrival of the Curtiss Tomahawk the tactical reconnaissance role went to it and the Lysander was stood down out of harm's way. The view of the previously mentioned Barratt was that the Lysander was unsuited for the task and had the Lysander replaced in 1942 with the Taylorcraft Auster for the air observation post (AOP) and liaison role. The Lysander remained in the support role only with the introduction of the Tomahawk and the RAF received hundreds of Austers following its introduction and the type served into the 1960s in the AOP role.

DSC_0421

Its worth noting that the Army Co-operation Command remained as a separate entity for a brief two year period, when it was disbanded in 1943 and its tasks orientated into the Tactical Air Force as a branch of Fighter Command, with "Mary" Coningham as its head. Barratt's command had worked closely with the Western Desert Air Force, with Coningham in North Africa so the move was entirely justified, even if it meant that after its muddled beginning, Barratt's command had found a purpose.

The British kept the Lysander around as a transport and it was used in specialist roles, such as spy dropping, which could also be an army co-operation role, but in this role it served with specialist squadrons. It suited this role very well, being able to land in very small spaces yet it was big enough to carry stuff and people over to or from the continent.

Lysander-1

The Germans, oddly, kept a large, high performing aircraft in service as its liaison spotter, the Fw 189 has a longer span and better performance than its replacement the Hs 126, with a nominal and wholly unnecessary crew of three, with the oddball Bv 141 taking second fiddle. Nevertheless, the Fieseler Storch populated units for liaison duties, and the Fw 189 was tasked with tactical reconnaissance, at which it proved reliable, so the perception that big fast aeroplanes for this task is not so redundant after all.

The Lysander was one of the first spotter planes to use advanced aerodynamics. It was going into squadron service about 2 years before the US prototypes were were flying and 4 years from first prototype Lysander to the fully slated American aircraft. The Storch flew about 3 weeks before the Lysander, the the Americans were definitely late.

However it appears that the Lysander was nowhere near as slow flying as the Storch. They also built almost 1800 of them so the program was a huge waste of time and money.
As far as the agent dropping thing goes, Only two squadrons in Europe ever did those duties. One wonders if a fair number of the agent drops couldn't have been done with commercial 4 seat cabin monoplane?
Too much may have been spent on the light bombing/ground attack role. The Germans are supposed to have built about 600 Hs 126s?

Perhaps the Germans spent too much money and effort on the Fw 189?
The Germans never seemed to develop any observer/liaison aircraft smaller than the Storch.

Shortround6 said:

The Lysander was one of the first spotter planes to use advanced aerodynamics. It was going into squadron service about 2 years before the US prototypes were were flying and 4 years from first prototype Lysander to the fully slated American aircraft. The Storch flew about 3 weeks before the Lysander, the the Americans were definitely late.

However it appears that the Lysander was nowhere near as slow flying as the Storch. They also built almost 1800 of them so the program was a huge waste of time and money.
As far as the agent dropping thing goes, Only two squadrons in Europe ever did those duties. One wonders if a fair number of the agent drops couldn't have been done with commercial 4 seat cabin monoplane?
Too much may have been spent on the light bombing/ground attack role. The Germans are supposed to have built about 600 Hs 126s?

Perhaps the Germans spent too much money and effort on the Fw 189?
The Germans never seemed to develop any observer/liaison aircraft smaller than the Storch.

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The Storch is the low speed/ short take off and landing winner here but if you ever seen each one, the Lysander is a lot more robust, the Storch reminds me of a big kite.

Shortround6 said:

They also built almost 1800 of them so the program was a huge waste of time and money.

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Hmm, harsh much? Again, a sweeping generalisation that characterises your disdain for British aircraft. In the role it was employed in it proved unnecessary but the British learned pretty quickly, as I mentioned that it was a useful type in other roles. Again regarding the Germans, you're forgetting the Hs 126 was around the same size and had better performance, i.e. it was faster than the Lysander and the main criticism was that the Lysander was too big and too fast as a spotter and too slow as a tactical bomber. And the Germans replaced the Hs 126 with a bigger, faster and more complex type. Again - and you so easily forget this point, it was pretty difficult for the British, or anyone in fact to predict how the war was going to go when the Lysander entered service in 1938. The Germans surprised even themselves when they invaded France. The British equivalent to the Storch was the Auster, not the Lysander.

I didn't forget the Hs 126.
The Hs 126 was not tasked with close support like the Lysander was.
Yes it could carry a single 110lb bomb for 'strikes' or six 10kg bombs. but that was under 25% of the bomb load of the Lysander.
The Hs 126 also carried one machine gun for strafing, not two. The Lysander carried about the same gun armament that the Ju 87B did.

Many countries in 1930s stuck a single machine gun on their recon/observer aircraft and some added a small bomb or two but very few tried to carry the load the Lysander did.

Now I may be reading the accounts wrong but something like 800 Lysanders were built after July of 1940. Correction welcome. There is some excuse for the planes built before the early part of 1940, there is a lot less excuse for building that number of planes after July. They knew pretty darn well they wouldn't work as intended.

Hi
Was the Hs 126 'faster' than a Lysander? Hs 126 max speed at sea level was 193 mph, at 9,843 ft 221 mph. Lysander I, 211 mph at sea level and 219 mph at 10,000 ft, Mk II 206 mph at sea level and 230 mph at 10,000 ft. We should also remember that the Hs 123 that was used by the Luftwaffe for ground attack during the BoF had a max speed at sea level of 207 mph and 212 mph at 3,940 ft.
In June 1940 there was not going to be a different aircraft for Army co-operation and the RAF would have to use what was available, there were only 15 Tomahawks in the UK in October 1940, with another 40 en route (so for anti-invasion use too little, too late), which is why it could only start replacing Lysanders during 1941. Taylorcraft Auster Is, for artillery spotting, entered service with 651 Sqn. in July 1941. Lysander production continued until January 1942, although these were being used mainly for duties such as Air/Sea rescue and target towing from 1941 onwards not for AC in UK.
Experiments in air support were going on during 1940, mainly to work out systems of co-operation which depended on 'communications' (as it did during WW1), the results of trials undertaken in Northern Ireland can be found in AP 3235:





Books (in addition to AP 3235 'Air Support') available on the British for this period include:
'The Development of British Tactical Air Power, 1940-1943 - A History of Army Co-operation Command' by Matthew Powell.
'Strategy for Victory - The Development of British Tactical Air Power, 1919-1943' by David Ian Hall.
'Close Call - RAF Close Air Support in the Mediterranean Volume I - Defeat in France to el Hamma 1939-1943' by Vic Flintham.

Mike

Shortround6 said:

As far as the agent dropping thing goes, Only two squadrons in Europe ever did those duties. One wonders if a fair number of the agent drops couldn't have been done with commercial 4 seat cabin monoplane?

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357 squadron, a special duties squadron in India in 1944/45, had a Lysander IIIa flight between March and Nov 1945 operating in Burma.
www.soeinburma.com/27/06/29/lysanders-over-burma/

The navies all had observation aircraft, all of which were designed under very tight constraints. In the ETO, the USN quit using them to observe naval shoots, replacing them by Hellcats and Spitfires (see 80-G-302115 Cruiser Scouting Squadron Seven (VCS-7))

Battle of France Then and Now list 5 Lysander squadrons in France on 10 May 1940, 3 were back in Britain on 19 May, the other two by 24 May. The book lists 46 Lysander serials as lost/damaged of which 11 relate to pre 10 May 1940, plus other losses where the serial is not known.

As of the end of 1941 most Army Co-Operation squadrons had some Lysanders, establishment for the 16 squadrons was 202, with 130 serviceable aircraft, of which 64 were Lysander. As of June 1942 Lysander were still present in most squadrons, with the 3 month plan to eliminate them and most of the Tomahawks in favour of Mustangs which was largely accomplished, so by 2 October 1942, 54 Tomahawk, 236 Mustang, 19 Lysander (12 of these with 309 Squadron in Northern Ireland)

Auster production began in May 1942 (officially counted as a General Reconnaissance type, Lysander was Trainer/Miscellaneous), same month as 652 squadron was formed.

651 squadron appears in the November 1941 Order of battle directly under 70 Group, not one of the wings, at that stage 70 group held the various training units with 32 to 37 Wings directly under the Command HQ, with 32 wing associated with the Army Scottish Command, 33 with Northern, 34 with Eastern, 35 with South Eastern, 36 Southern and 37 wing with Western Command.

652 squadron with Tiger Moth appears in the 1 August 1942 order of Battle.

Britain started Lysander production in May 1938, finishing in August 1941 for the 1,352 reconnaissance versions, (including 70 built for export to Egypt, Finland, France, Ireland and Turkey), the 100 Target Tugs were produced July 1941 to January 1942.

Canada produced 75 Lysander II (27 from September 1939 to May 1940, the remainder November 1940 to April 1941), the pre war and early war orders, most retained in Canada. Then 150 IIIA March to October 1942 for the RAF and used for training and target tugs in Canada, along with 103 shipped from Britain.

No.309 (Polish) Squadron RAF was in Scotland (primarily Dunino and Dalcross with a short duration detachment to 41 OTU at Old Sarum on southern England ) in September-October 1942 - confirmed by Squadron ORBs and copies of pilot log books.

RAF ACC Squadrons retained some Curtiss Tomahawks on Squadron strength until at least mid-1943. This was primarily to retain the vertical reconnaissance camera capability fitted to some Tomahawks, and until such time as sufficient numbers of Mustangs had been modified to take the vertical camera installation - again confirmed by Squadron ORBs, pilot log books and files held in UK archives relating to employment of Mustangs with ACC Squadrons and War Office files relating to requirements for vertical photographic coverage for Army purposes.

Despite losing Lysanders from their Squadron establishment during 1942, many Squadrons would 'borrow' them from Group Aircraft Pools when required to support Squadron activity during exercises or for training purposes eg use as target tugs for air to air firing; or to convey senior officers; or provide urgent logisitical support to Squadrons (fetching and delivering urgently requred aircraft parts when Squadrons operating detachments away from main airfield or moving between airfields during exercises). Otherwise the Squadrons would make use of aircraft attached to the Squadron or their 'parent' Wing such as Tiger Moths, Miles Magisters, Miles Masters, Percival Proctors, d.h. Dominies to provide 'hack' aircraft to ferry personnel and parts.

RAF ACC Squadrons were still practicing and being utilised to provide artillery direction (Arty/R) as a part of their tasking, utilising Lysanders, then Tomahawks, then Mustangs. It was a role that they continued to deliver up to and including VE-Day in the ETO. They would usually pick up the Arty/R tasking where the target was further beyond the front line where the target would be beyond the visual range and safe area for the lighter AOP aircraft to operate. Often they would be involved in direction of counter battery fire, or direction of artillery onto predetermined targets of higher value eg. directing planned artillery fire onto enemy AA positions during Rhine crossings in support of airborne operations. A complete chapter on use of fighter reconnaissance aircraft in artillery direction was included in a post-War report produced by 2TAF, noting the success in use of fighter reconnaissance aircraft in this role in an environment where AOP types would not survive.

Hate to post this, but here is a TP-39.



No, it wasn't long-range or high-altitude, but is WAS ugly. If it were still around, it would STILL be ugly, and quite unique.

The Pilatus P-2 below was much more eye-friendly.



Almost looks like a fighter, huh. And it has 12-cylinders to boot.

Then, there's the Beech Model 72 Econojet:



It was basically a Jet Mentor, with many of the same components. It, along with the TEMCO Pinto, shown below, lost out to the Cessna T-37 Tweety Bird.



Below is the original 2-seater P-80 that turned into the T-33:

GregP said:

Hate to post this, but here is a TP-39.

View attachment 656487

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ColFord said:

No.309 (Polish) Squadron RAF was in Scotland (primarily Dunino and Dalcross with a short duration detachment to 41 OTU at Old Sarum on southern England ) in September-October 1942 - confirmed by Squadron ORBs and copies of pilot log books.

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Correct, I switched the locations but not the aircraft strength of 309 squadron in Scotland with 231 in Northern Ireland in my original message.

GregP said:

Hate to post this, but here is a TP-39.

View attachment 656487

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"TP" would seem to be a very appropriate designation. But with the cockpit moved forward, at least you won't need as much nose armor.

As the Lysander has had much mention I would be grateful for any direction to stories of their fighting in the Battle of France and/or those of the Fairey Battle in operations by the Advanced Air Striking Force.

yulzari said:

As the Lysander has had much mention I would be grateful for any direction to stories of their fighting in the Battle of France and/or those of the Fairey Battle in operations by the Advanced Air Striking Force.

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Hi
There are a number of books including:
'Blitzed! - The Battle of France May-June 1940' by Victor Bingham, Air Research, 1990.
'Valiant Wings' by Norman Franks, William Kimber, 1988.
'The RAF in the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain' by Greg Baughen, Fonthill, 2016 (the author has also written a book on the Fairey Battle).
'A.A.S.F.' by C Gardner, Hutchinson & CO., 1940. For a 'contemporary' view of it all.
For detail I think the first two on the list are probably better.

Mike

Soft spot in my heart for the Westland, it was one of the first models I built in my youth.

MikeMeech said:

Hi
There are a number of books including:
'Blitzed! - The Battle of France May-June 1940' by Victor Bingham, Air Research, 1990.
'Valiant Wings' by Norman Franks, William Kimber, 1988.
'The RAF in the Battle of France and the Battle of Britain' by Greg Baughen, Fonthill, 2016 (the author has also written a book on the Fairey Battle).
'A.A.S.F.' by C Gardner, Hutchinson & CO., 1940. For a 'contemporary' view of it all.
For detail I think the first two on the list are probably better.

Mike

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Thank 'ee kindly young sir.