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They should have just bought the plans for a Shōkaku-class and hired some designers to come to Deutsche Werke to drive the design and build.All those wonder weapons and they couldn't finish Graf Zeppelin.
If this were the case, how would France and Britain view the Soviet attack on Poland?
Except Graf Zeppelin's design predates that of the Shokaku class by about a year. (GZ laid down Dec 1936. Shokaku laid down Dec 1937). The Shokakus didn't complete until Aug/Sept 1941.They should have just bought the plans for a Shōkaku-class and hired some designers to come to Deutsche Werke to drive the design and build.
A fair point, I would get into carrier warfare more but no Mustangs.No carriers.
It's certainly a move entirely out of character for both Britain and France. One that must challenge whatever Hitler was telling his general staff about the likely ease of success. Imagine if in June 1990, one thousand USMC troops land and encamp in Kuwait, just as Saddam is planning his invasion that August. Surely this tiny force would throw a wrench into any assumptions of an easy win for Iraq? It's not the one thousand Marines that's the concern, it's the hammer that comes if you touch them. Britain and France need to convey that this is a trip wire force, if our guys are scratched, we will roll into Germany. For this to play, both Britain and France need to have boots on the ground on the German border, and not just behind defensive works, but ready to move forward.It is it all politics. Does it convince Hitler that the British and French are serious or do they take a good look at what was sent and after laughing, they delay the invasion by one week.
For this to play, both Britain and France need to have boots on the ground on the German border, and not just behind defensive works, but ready to move forward.
This was the 1930s. Less than 20 years since the first flat deck carrier (Argus) had appeared. Everyone, the US included, were still trying to figure out what a carrier could and couldn't do.Germans needed to figure out what the Graf Zeppelin was supposed to do.
Everyone at least looked at putting big guns on carriers. Partly it was because the Washington Treaty of 1922 specifically permitted it. So why wouldn't you!They saddled her with more guns than US Brooklyn class cruiser and about 4in of belt armor. More suited to a North Sea gun fight than carrier opps.
40-42 aircraft was ludicrous for a carrier of her size.
The 1922 Treaty laid down limits on ship and gun size. And on replacement intervals. Why build anything other than the max permitted in case you found your opponent built something bigger. The French tried it with Dunkerque & Strasbourg to match the Italian Cavour rebuilds only to find the Italians then building the Littorios, forcing them to build the full size (35,000 tons) Richelieus.For some reason a number of navies, over a number of decades, built ships to "match" an opponent's ship one for one like a dual. Some navies, like the Germans, were never going to have the number of ships needed to do straight up fights with their enemies. One Bismarck was not going to win a fight with four old QEs that had modern fire control. Sinking two of then or even 3 before getting sunk leaves the Germans with no battleship (or one building) while the British have another dozen left, for example.
It was only old thinking if you apply hindsight. No one had ever fought a carrier war in the 1930s. WW2, and particularly the war in the Pacific changed much thinking.The Graf Zeppelin was old thinking. Carriers should not be self supporting (not need escorts or minimal escorts). They should concentrate on flying operations and have enough sacrificial escorts ,destroyers and light cruisers, to handle surface attacks from less than the enemies main fleet.
I would agree but it happened in WW2. Glorious in 1940 and Formidable at night during the Matapan action for different reasons. In Oct 1944 the USN cruisers set about chasing down the remaining Japanese carriers after Leyte, finishing off the damaged and immobile Chiyoda. As usual the enemy gets a say in what happens.If the enemies main battle fleet is within gun range of your carrier somebody has really screwed up.
Well, some hindsightThere are a few things to unpick here and you seem to be applying a lot of hindsight.
It was only 50 years since smokeless powder appeared and about 25 years since oil fuel showed up. 10 years could cover a lot of change. The Akagi had some of her boilers taken out/replaced in her 1935-38 reconstruction.This was the 1930s. Less than 20 years since the first flat deck carrier (Argus) had appeared. Everyone, the US included, were still trying to figure out what a carrier could and couldn't do.
Like I said, a lot changed in 10 years even without shooting war. Akagi was built with ten 8in guns but four were taken out during the rebuild. Unfortunately for the Germans they had a team visit her during the 1935 Naval week just before her return to Japan for the Rebuild. Akagi was also around 30,000tons standard (and more at full load) rather than the "legend" displacement.Look at the USN 8x8" guns on the Lexingtons only completed in 1927.
And here comes the problem, The Lexington was closer to 36,000 tons, Her 33,000 ton figure doesn't count around 3,000 tons of "improvements" the US figured she was entitled to as a converted battleship/battlecruiser. Trying to match the two big American carriers and the two big Japanese ones on a much smaller displacement ship meant something had to go.So Germany had 47,250 tons of carrier tonnage to play with or 23,625 tons for each of the ships it wanted. As originally designed GZ was just over 23,000 tons. After her redesign and bulging in WW2 she grew in size.
Most histories say that the Dunkerque & Strasbourg were built to counter the Deutschland class. The Dunkerque was laid down in the last days of 1932 and the Cavour didn't start rebuild until Oct 1933. I have no idea how leaky the Italian design offices were to French spies.The French tried it with Dunkerque & Strasbourg to match the Italian Cavour rebuilds only to find the Italians then building the Littorios, forcing them to build the full size (35,000 tons) Richelieus.
The whole idea of screening the main fleet units went back to before 1900 if not into the age of sail. The problem was not viewing the carriers as main fleet units despite their cost, size and building times (not much quicker than a battleship).It was only old thinking if you apply hindsight. No one had ever fought a carrier war in the 1930s. WW2, and particularly the war in the Pacific changed much thinking.
You could have had a 15 in turret on the Glorious and it wouldn't have made any difference. Stupidity can't be solved with a few extra guns.I would agree but it happened in WW2. Glorious in 1940 and Formidable at night during the Matapan action for different reasons. In Oct 1944 the USN cruisers set about chasing down the remaining Japanese carriers after Leyte, finishing off the damaged and immobile Chiyoda. As usual the enemy gets a say in what happens.
USS Gambier Bay (CVE-73) did try and defend itself with it's sole 5" gun at Samar.If the enemies main battle fleet is within gun range of your carrier somebody has really screwed up.
USS Gambier Bay (CVE-73) did try and defend itself with it's sole 5" gun at Samar.
And sometimes the screw up was at a much higher pay grade than the captain of the ship/s that paid the price.If the enemies main battle fleet is within gun range of your carrier somebody has really screwed up
The situation is a bit different.It's not the one thousand Marines that's the concern, it's the hammer that comes if you touch them. Britain and France need to convey that this is a trip wire force, if our guys are scratched, we will roll into Germany.
Yes that is the way it is portrayed in most histories. But that puts the focus on Germany and ignores what was going on between Italy & France at the time. It is more complicated than portrayed. The appearance of the Deutshland class has some influence on the French ships but they were not built simply to counter them.Most histories say that the Dunkerque & Strasbourg were built to counter the Deutschland class. The Dunkerque was laid down in the last days of 1932 and the Cavour didn't start rebuild until Oct 1933. I have no idea how leaky the Italian design offices were to French spies.
The French and Italians were trying to one up each other with Destroyers and Cruisers and came up with some of the worst designs possible. Egg shells armed with hammers may have been borrowed from the British WW I battlecruisers but some of these ships were even less balanced.
I believe there were also tonnage restrictions on the smaller classes, 6,000 tons for cruisers comes to mind and similar Pre WW I sizes for the Destroyers and torpedo boats. The German light cruisers were more North Sea/Baltic cruisers than Atlantic cruisers. Some did make very long cruises but at least one needed hull repairs along the way after dealing with heavy seas.Under the Treaty of Versailles the RM was severely limited in size. Manpower was limited to 15,000. It was limited to 6 pre-dreadnoughts (plus 2 in Reserve) all built 1904 to 1908, 6 cruisers (plus 2 in reserve), 12 destroyers and 12 torpedo boats.
Which ignores what had been the trajectory in cruiser design prior to Washington Conference which ended in Feb 1922. And ships in those days were a lot simpler than they became by the end of WW2 (no radar, minimal secondary and tertiary AA, fewer electronics etc) so took far less time to design and then, generally, one class design could serve as the basis for the next with little modification to the basics. Who proposed the Washington cruiser limits seems lost in time but the principal nations were all thinking along the same lines.The Washington treaty cruisers started showing up pretty quick considering the design work.
Laying down dates.
Kent.........................Sept 1924
Nachi........................Oct 1924
Duquesne...............Oct 1924
Trento.......................Feb 1925
Pensacola...............Oct 1926
Deutschland..........Feb 1929
Sometimes the 3rd class of a navy was being laid down before the 1st class was doing sea trials so a lot of errors were carried over.