Most Promising Amerika Bomber?

[Koopernic]

Thanks for the well thought out post Koopernic, but could the Me 264 really compete with the He 277 at shorter ranges, I thought it only had a max payload of ~11,000 lbs? Also, wouldn't the Me 264 need larger, redesigned wings as I thought that it extremely high wing loading?

I don't think that the Me 264 could carry more than 11000bs, I believe 2 x 3000kg bombs was considered ideal for an America mission though only SC2500 existed. Clearly the Luftwaffe were serious about getting heavyweight loads down. Much depends on how safe RATO could be made.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

I don't think that the He 177 often carried more than 11000bs, I believe 2 x 3000kg bombs was considered ideal for an America mission though only SC2500 existed. Clearly the Luftwaffe were serious about getting heavyweight loads down. Much depends on how safe RATO could be made.

A couple things here:

Do you mean He 277? Also, I seriously doubt the figure that the 277 (801 powered) only had a max bomb load of 13,228 lbs with a larger bomb bay than the He 177, which could carry up to around 15,000 lbs.

I was originally referring to the Me 264 having a max bomb load of around 11,000 lbs.

What was the problem with RATO? Was it not reliable?

 

[Koopernic]

A couple things here:

Do you mean He 277? Also, I seriously doubt the figure that the 277 (801 powered) only had a max bomb load of 13,228 lbs with a larger bomb bay than the He 177, which could carry up to around 15,000 lbs.

I was originally referring to the Me 264 having a max bomb load of around 11,000 lbs.

What was the problem with RATO? Was it not reliable?

Sorry, I had a brain event, I'd meant the Me 264.

If enough RATO rockets failed there would not be enough speed to get of the ground, some RATO rockets couldn't be stopped so you might find yourself committed to,an impossible takeoff. My rules for RATO safey would be:
1 one rocket failing is to be tolerable.
2 although ignition before V1 (point of no return on runway) is not ideal the rockets must be ignited before then, should any rocket fail it must be detected automatically and the functioning rockets shutdown automatically and an alarm inform the pilot to abort. There is still danger of a failure of a rocket after it has run, hence the system must be safe with a single rocket failing.
3 a drogue parachute to slow the bomber down by allowing an increased V1.

The Bombay of the Me 264 when configured as a short range bomber could accommodate 2x SC2500 and 4 x SC1800 internally so it was actually bigger than the He 177. That's 13200kg ie 29000lbs.

RATO was probably the only way besides in flight refuelling to make raids with decent armament feasible. It was probably safer than the he 177 engine issues.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Sorry, I had a brain event, I'd meant the Me 264.

If enough RATO rockets failed there would not be enough speed to get of the ground, some RATO rockets couldn't be stopped so you might find yourself committed to,an impossible takeoff. My rules for RATO safey would be:
1 one rocket failing is to be tolerable.
2 although ignition before V1 (point of no return on runway) is not ideal the rockets must be ignited before then, should any rocket fail it must be detected automatically and the functioning rockets shutdown automatically and an alarm inform the pilot to abort. There is still danger of a failure of a rocket after it has run, hence the system must be safe with a single rocket failing.
3 a drogue parachute to slow the bomber down by allowing an increased V1.

The Bombay of the Me 264 when configured as a short range bomber could accommodate 2x SC2500 and 4 x SC1800 internally so it was actually bigger than the He 177. That's 13200kg ie 29000lbs.

RATO was probably the only way besides in flight refuelling to make raids with decent armament feasible. It was probably safer than the he 177 engine issues.

Ok, thanks Koopernic, how did the Me 264's bomb bay compare to that of the He 277 (thinking the nearly completely new a/c with 7m long, 1.9m wide, and 1.75m high bomb bomb rather than the He 177B)? Also, did the German's ever use anything close to the RATO system that you proposed? Finally, what was the Me 264's range with 29,000 lbs of bombs? Many thanks

 

[razor1uk]

For dual RATO's with big loads, would the Me.324 Gigant be comparable in some aspects regarding take-off?

 

[fastmongrel]

It really comes down to only 2 sensible options the Me264 and the Ju390 being the other. The rest were Napkinwaffe which wouldnt have flown till well after 1945 even if given high priority.

The 390 flew and handled quite well from what I have read, it didnt use unreliable twinned engines like some designs planned to use, it had good range from the start that would be able to be increased relatively easily, 6 engines means plenty of redundancy if 1 engine burns out, it would also make an excellent maritime recon and heavy transport.

The 264 also flew but lacked power which would have needed twinned engines to be fitted, it had marginal handling at altitude, poor climb and takeoff, a smaller volume fuselage and a very high wing loading. Compared to a B29 it was a poor 2nd and no one was going to be flying to Europe and return with any sort of bombload in a B29.

I voted the 390 as the best of an uninspiring bunch that would have been chopped down in droves if they had ever got anywhere near the US. The US would know they were coming because of Ultra maybe not the exact day or route but would know they are coming. Plus any base containg the Amerika bombers can expect round the clock surveillance and regular visits from Medium bombers.

Your going to have a line of Picket Destroyers sitting say 3 to 400 miles off shore then Half a dozen Jeep carriers with fast climbing fighters on board could sit 200 miles off shore and wait for business. The fighters would probably have to be Seafires with 60 series Merlins till the F8 Bearcat got into service in mid/late 45 as I dont think the Corsair or Hellcat had any business being above 25,000 ft unless there was a high altitude two stage supercharged R2800 I dont know about. Then you will probably have another line of Destroyers or Light Cruisers not far off shore acting as Radar direction for P61s, P38s, P51s, P47s. Then to top all that Radar guided VT fused shell firing AA batteries. I hope Hitler planned to hand out the medals in advance as not many if any would be collected till well after the war.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

It really comes down to only 2 sensible options the Me264 and the Ju390 being the other. The rest were Napkinwaffe which wouldnt have flown till well after 1945 even if given high priority.

The 390 flew and handled quite well from what I have read, it didnt use unreliable twinned engines like some designs planned to use, it had good range from the start that would be able to be increased relatively easily, 6 engines means plenty of redundancy if 1 engine burns out, it would also make an excellent maritime recon and heavy transport.

The 264 also flew but lacked power which would have needed twinned engines to be fitted, it had marginal handling at altitude, poor climb and takeoff, a smaller volume fuselage and a very high wing loading. Compared to a B29 it was a poor 2nd and no one was going to be flying to Europe and return with any sort of bombload in a B29.

I voted the 390 as the best of an uninspiring bunch that would have been chopped down in droves if they had ever got anywhere near the US. The US would know they were coming because of Ultra maybe not the exact day or route but would know they are coming. Plus any base containg the Amerika bombers can expect round the clock surveillance and regular visits from Medium bombers.

Your going to have a line of Picket Destroyers sitting say 3 to 400 miles off shore then Half a dozen Jeep carriers with fast climbing fighters on board could sit 200 miles off shore and wait for business. The fighters would probably have to be Seafires with 60 series Merlins till the F8 Bearcat got into service in mid/late 45 as I dont think the Corsair or Hellcat had any business being above 25,000 ft unless there was a high altitude two stage supercharged R2800 I dont know about. Then you will probably have another line of Destroyers or Light Cruisers not far off shore acting as Radar direction for P61s, P38s, P51s, P47s. Then to top all that Radar guided VT fused shell firing AA batteries. I hope Hitler planned to hand out the medals in advance as not many if any would be collected till well after the war.

Comparing the B-29 and the Amerika bombers is like comparing apples to oranges, they're meant for different roles (not to mention that it's never good to compare a prototype to a production a/c), also the scenario you described works vice versa too, in an alternate world where Britain is out, and the German's have defeated the Soviets, I wouldn't expect the American Amerika Bombers to not be torn to shreds either after their first sortie, if that.

 

[GrauGeist]

Comparing the B-29 and the Amerika bombers is like comparing apples to oranges, they're meant for different roles, also the scenario you described works vice versa too, in an alternate world where Britain is out, and the German's have defeated the Soviets, I wouldn't expect the American Amerika Bombers to not be torn to shreds either after their first sortie, if that.

Actually, the B-29 was intended to be a very long range bomber from the onset.

Aircraft development in the U.S. followed a different doctrine than Europe for the sole reason that the U.S. was separated by great distances unlike Europe, where warring nations were often times only a few hundred (or less) miles apart. The same can be said for Japan, who needed long range as part of the bomber's criteria, however, heavy bombers were not a priority.

If you'll notice, long range (heavy) bombers became a mainstay of the U.S. military in the late 1920's and early 1930's and with that ideology, we see such types as the B-17, B-19, B-24 and of course, the B-29 emerge. Even the B-36 has it's roots in the early war, because at that point, there was a real concern that Britain would fall...eliminating the possibility of any bases from which to operate if the U.S. went to war.

So the Amerika Bombers and the B-29 are indeed, birds of the same feather.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Actually, the B-29 was intended to be a very long range bomber from the onset.

Aircraft development in the U.S. followed a different doctrine than Europe for the sole reason that the U.S. was separated by great distances unlike Europe, where warring nations were often times only a few hundred (or less) miles apart. The same can be said for Japan, who needed long range as part of the bomber's criteria, however, heavy bombers were not a priority.

If you'll notice, long range (heavy) bombers became a mainstay of the U.S. military in the late 1920's and early 1930's and with that ideology, we see such types as the B-17, B-19, B-24 and of course, the B-29 emerge. Even the B-36 has it's roots in the early war, because at that point, there was a real concern that Britain would fall...eliminating the possibility of any bases from which to operate if the U.S. went to war.

So the Amerika Bombers and the B-29 are indeed, birds of the same feather.

Sure it's long-range, but not extreme range, hence the continuation of the development of the B-36 as an intercontinental bomber. Also, wasn't there a thread on the feasibility of B-29 sorties from Newfounfland to Germany?

 

[fastmongrel]

also the scenario you described works vice versa too, in an alternate world where Britain is out, and the German's have defeated the Soviets, I wouldn't expect the American Amerika Bombers to not be torn to shreds either after their first sortie, if that.

If your scenario came into being in a Luft46 fantasy world I could see long range B29s or B50s using tanker aircraft to make 1 journey to Europe. Because the Germans had no equivalent of Ultra there is going to be no warning. As a result several of Germanys major cities have a second Sun rise over them. By about 1947 or 8 the B36 makes the journey not long after a Midway carrier group can come along and drop its new buckets of Manhattan Project brand sunshine. Doesnt matter if Germany can build a bomber to reach the east coast of America a few hundreds of HE bombs barely scratch the US economy but the US can turn Germanys economy into glass slag.

Germany because of bad physics and a lack of Scientists would get an Atomic bomb about the same time as Hitler became a sane humanist.

The Amerika Bomber project was a typical Nazi doodle on the back of an envelope that was never going to work out. It might have led to an excellent very long range patrol and or heavy transport but turning Manhattan into flames fahgedabout it

 

[SpicyJuan11]

...Because the Germans had no equivalent of Ultra there is going to be no warning...

Radar in Brittany, Cork, and Galicia?

It might have led to an excellent very long range patrol and or heavy transport but turning Manhattan into flames fahgedabout it

Quite right, the goal of the Amerika Bomber wasn't to mount large bombing raids on the US industry a la the Eighth AF, rather to mount a couple of nuisance raids along the Eastern Seaboard.

 

[Shortround6]

Well, I disagree with Fastmongrels lines of radar pickets and fleets of ships waiting in "ambush".

Since the Germans don't even know where a number of the regular convoys are it is quite possible for the German raiders to be spotted as they overfly a convoy by mistake, Then there is the US fishing fleet. Then there is geography itself. A Great circle route from London to New York crosses Newfoundland, part of Nova Scotia, flys down the Bay of Fundy, is never more than 50-75 miles from the coast of Maine, almost over flies Boston and is over land from the Massachusetts coast until perhaps the last couple of miles before Hells Gate (East River). Avoiding this requires a detour of at least several hundred miles.

And given any warning at ALL the Amerika Bombers will be hacked out of the sky by P-67s and P-58s and P-54s without any help by the US Navy.

Hey, if the Luftwaffe can get their crappy engines to work for this scenario than the Americans can get their crappy engines to work

 

[pbehn]

From what I have read the B 29 was so expensive in itself and in terms of crew training that previously "normal" loss rates for B17s and B 24 could not be accepted. If Uncle Sam was balking at the cost of losses then Germany could not afford to think about it.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

From what I have read the B 29 was so expensive in itself and in terms of crew training that previously "normal" loss rates for B17s and B 24 could not be accepted. If Uncle Sam was balking at the cost of losses then Germany could not afford to think about it.

That's true, but again, Germany wouldn't attempt massive 1000 Bomber raids on the US as the Allies did on Germany, rather create a limited batch and have them sortie once, or a couple of times.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

For dual RATO's with big loads, would the Me.324 Gigant be comparable in some aspects regarding take-off?

What do you exactly mean? The MTOW of the 324 was 94,000 lbs, and the 264's was 123,000 lbs, AFAIK, these are without RATO.

 

[Shortround6]

That's true, but again, Germany wouldn't attempt massive 1000 Bomber raids on the US as the Allies did on Germany, rather create a limited batch and have them sortie once, or a couple of times.

Sortie once???????

Talk about setting records for money spent for very little return. One raid by several hundred bombers would no more knock America out of the war than Pearl harbor did. Throw in the desire for revenge and Germany just might reap much more than it sowed.

And this is definitely a one trick Pony. If England Still exists then after a the first bombing raid on American soil, the vast majority of American Aircraft in Europe would be making sure that the Germans had no large airplanes left. Hiding single engine fighters is one thing. Hiding Ju 390s under camouflage nets is another thing.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

Sortie once???????

Talk about setting records for money spent for very little return. One raid by several hundred bombers would no more knock America out of the war than Pearl harbor did. Throw in the desire for revenge and Germany just might reap much more than it sowed.

And this is definitely a one trick Pony. If England Still exists then after a the first bombing raid on American soil, the vast majority of American Aircraft in Europe would be making sure that the Germans had no large airplanes left. Hiding single engine fighters is one thing. Hiding Ju 390s under camouflage nets is another thing.

Hey, I never said that it was a good idea

 

[pbehn]

Sortie once???????

Talk about setting records for money spent for very little return. One raid by several hundred bombers would no more knock America out of the war than Pearl harbor did. Throw in the desire for revenge and Germany just might reap much more than it sowed.

And this is definitely a one trick Pony. If England Still exists then after a the first bombing raid on American soil, the vast majority of American Aircraft in Europe would be making sure that the Germans had no large airplanes left. Hiding single engine fighters is one thing. Hiding Ju 390s under camouflage nets is another thing.

If the UK was still in the game then British resources would be used too in the same way that US A/C countered the V1 threat. Even if Germany had the resources by 1944 I think everyone had seen that bombing cities in nuisance raids was a nuisance and nothing more. Making Uncle Sam mad not just angry would be counter productive. I am sure others here can give the details on a B-29, it was the most expensive military project ever (at the time) this made a B 29 expensive to produce as an aircraft but the most expensive is the first one. The idea of producing a few as a gesture ignores the desperate situation Germany was in. How many fully fueled Bf 109s does a fully fuelled B 29s 9,501 US gallons represent?

 

[pattern14]

The Arado Ar E.555 flying wing was a consideration, and appeared promising, but expense and resources ( as well as time) were against it. Given more favourable conditions it certainly would have out performed the other contenders. Still, these aircraft are best relegated to the Luft 46 basket as has beens that never were. Fascinating stuff, but highly improbable. The Red skull made good use of his in the original Captain America movie, and this is where they really belong. Along with projects like the Daimler Project "C" etc, it remains the stuff of fantasy.

 

[SpicyJuan11]

The Arado Ar E.555 flying wing was a consideration, and appeared promising, but expense and resources ( as well as time) were against it. Given more favourable conditions it certainly would have out performed the other contenders. Still, these aircraft are best relegated to the Luft 46 basket as has beens that never were. Fascinating stuff, but highly improbable. The Red skull made good use of his in the original Captain America movie, and this is where they really belong. Along with projects like the Daimler Project "C" etc, it remains the stuff of fantasy.

The Arado E.555 is really kind of pushing into "Luft '46" territory honestly.