Much improved Me 109K?

[spicmart]

The following is an excerpt from "Messerschmitt Flugzeug Profile Bf-109 G/K" by Manfred Griehl.
It is originally German so I translated it into English:


Two month before delivery of the Me 109K-4 in October 1944, proposals for improving the K were given from Erprobungsstelle Rechlin to the Technische Amt of the RLM.
There Ing. Dietrich summed up eight means to achieve a considerable performance boost for the K-4:

1. Changing the angle of attack of the wing
2. smooth surface structure
3. aerodynamically better canopy shape
4. improved air inlets
5. improved supercharger air intake
6. enlarged oil cooler
(a 0,400 m^2 oilcooler was proposed compared to
0,360 m^2 of the K-4)
7. new exhaust thrusters
8. aerodynamically improved engine cowling

Oberst Petersen, E-Stelle Rechlin, estimated that, when taking all these points into account, a speed increase of 60 km/h would be achieved.
That would equal about 200 PS more engine power.
There had been an aircraft built with all these features and tested from 20.10.1944 on.
The fate of this machine is unknown.
(In the end the improvements were not feasible because of the war situation)


This is the one and only time that I have read about such a machine. Has anyone ever heard about it or knows more?

 

[fliger747]

I expect that changing the AOA of the wing was actually changing the angle of incidence. Since speed was mentioned as the sought result, I would guess that a slight reduction in incidence might have been experimented with for optimal fuselage drag at max speed. As with all things aircraft, one change might improve one spec and reduce another.

Cleaning up the details, always a profitable avenue, especially as the 109 got a bit lumpy in it's old age.

 

[spicmart]

I expect that changing the AOA of the wing was actually changing the angle of incidence. Since speed was mentioned as the sought result, I would guess that a slight reduction in incidence might have been experimented with for optimal fuselage drag at max speed. As with all things aircraft, one change might improve one spec and reduce another.

Cleaning up the details, always a profitable avenue, especially as the 109 got a bit lumpy in it's old age.

Okay, then angle of incident. Sorry, I wasn't sure of the right term. But a 109 with such a performance should be better known. I have not met anybody who knew about it yet.
A plus of 60 km/h would have propelled it right into the realm of the Allied late-/postwar super props.

 

[P-39 Expert]

Still, excellent translation.

 

[spicmart]

Thanks.

 

[dedalos]

I knew the existence of these proposals, in august 1944. But i did not know the exact proposals. But anyone could imagine what would be. Even if the benefit would not be 60 but 50 or even 40 km/h, it s once more clear, that germany did not took full advantage of the 109 s potentional.
It appears that a fully aerodinamicaly developed 109, could approach 700km/h even with the db605a. Now imagine this in october 1943. Would not change the outcome of the war , but would be very close to the western fighters and superior on the eastern front. With the Db 605D plus MW50 would be fully competitive even against 150 fuel powered fighters.
Some late 109s built by erla, is reported that possesed remarkable performace. Perhaps some of the proposed improvements were sporadicaly introduced in to production

 

[Milosh]

There was more aerodynamic fairings for the mg bulges on the G-10 and K-4. Also on some G-14s.

The build quality got worse.

 

[Mike Williams]

The build quality got worse.

That's what I was thinking:

Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen. Es wird seitens der Herren des Chef.Ing. davon berichtet, dass die gegenüberstellende Vorführung einer Mustang und einer Me 109 für Herrn Sauer geplant war, dass jedoch Herr Sauer selbst leider nicht erschienen sei. Die Gegenüberstellung der beiden Maschinen sei, was die Ausführung der Me 109 angelange geradezu niederschmetternd.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Niederschrift_Nr_6730.pdf

 

[Denniss]

There was more aerodynamic fairings for the mg bulges on the G-10 and K-4. Also on some G-14s

On G-14/AS only

 

[dedalos]

Also

That's what I was thinking:

Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen. Es wird seitens der Herren des Chef.Ing. davon berichtet, dass die gegenüberstellende Vorführung einer Mustang und einer Me 109 für Herrn Sauer geplant war, dass jedoch Herr Sauer selbst leider nicht erschienen sei. Die Gegenüberstellung der beiden Maschinen sei, was die Ausführung der Me 109 angelange geradezu niederschmetternd.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Niederschrift_Nr_6730.pdf

Yes, it is well known that german military equipment s building quality fall during the last year of the war. But what this fact had to do with the current thread? Kurfust was so true about you

 

[Milosh]

On G-14/AS only

That is why I said some G-14s.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Also


Yes, it is well known that german military equipment s building quality fall during the last year of the war. But what this fact had to do with the current thread? Kurfust was so true about you

No need to take cheap shots. Keep it civil.

 

[P-39 Expert]

That's what I was thinking:

Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen. Es wird seitens der Herren des Chef.Ing. davon berichtet, dass die gegenüberstellende Vorführung einer Mustang und einer Me 109 für Herrn Sauer geplant war, dass jedoch Herr Sauer selbst leider nicht erschienen sei. Die Gegenüberstellung der beiden Maschinen sei, was die Ausführung der Me 109 angelange geradezu niederschmetternd.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Niederschrift_Nr_6730.pdf

Is there an English translation?

 

[tomo pauk]

Is there an English translation?

WIth help of Google translate:
" Im Zusammenhang mit der Zellenfrage wird von den Herren berichtet, dass die Leistung der Zelle ausser-ordentlich schlecht und zum Teil unerhört niedrig liege. Auch hier weist DB wieder daraufhin, dass es keinen Zweck hat, den Motor dauernd in der Leistung aufzustocken, während die Zellen durch Fabrikations-ungenauigkeit etc. immer schlechter werden und damit den durch die Steigerung der Motorleistung möglichen Geschwindigkeitsgewinn wieder zunichte machen."

... should mean:

"In connection with the cell (= airframe) question, it is reported by the gentlemen that the performance of the cell is exceptionally bad and sometimes unheard of low. Again, DB points out that there is no point in constantly increasing the engine's performance, while the cells are getting worse and worse due to manufacturing inaccuracy, etc., and thus negate the speed gain that can be achieved by increasing engine performance."

The other part of text is about the planned, but not achieved fight & combat comparison of Mustang and Me 109.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Is there an English translation?

I can translate later if I have some time.

 

[Denniss]

That is why I said some G-14s.

A bit more than just "some", I count ~1.8K AS versions vs ~2.9K non-AS

 

[Shortround6]

You can streamline the 109 but unless a few other things are fixed (and some are not easily fixable) you don't gain a whole lot.

Aleron response was already getting poor in the upper speed ranges, adding 30-50kph just makes things worse, you have a straight line fighter.

I don't know about rudder response/control, they were fitting rudder tabs near the end?

The 109 was too lightly armed to be a good bomber interceptor (3 gun versions) going faster really doesn't change that.

While a more streamlined plane may increase the range a bit it doesn't do much for endurance. You fly further in the same amount of time.

 

[BiffF15]

You can streamline the 109 but unless a few other things are fixed (and some are not easily fixable) you don't gain a whole lot.

Aleron response was already getting poor in the upper speed ranges, adding 30-50kph just makes things worse, you have a straight line fighter.

I don't know about rudder response/control, they were fitting rudder tabs near the end?

The 109 was too lightly armed to be a good bomber interceptor (3 gun versions) going faster really doesn't change that.

While a more streamlined plane may increase the range a bit it doesn't do much for endurance. You fly further in the same amount of time.

The only thing I see speed giving the Me109 towards the end of the war is a slightly longer lifespan due to a slightly better ability to leave a fight.

More power means more speed as well as greater fuel consumption. The more it's used the shorter the sortie length, so unless more fuel gets stuffed in somewhere the use really is for escape only.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Shortround6]

The only thing I see speed giving the Me109 towards the end of the war is a slightly longer lifespan due to a slightly better ability to leave a fight.

More power means more speed as well as greater fuel consumption. The more it's used the shorter the sortie length, so unless more fuel gets stuffed in somewhere the use really is for escape only.

Cheers,
Biff

I am assuming the aerodynamic improvements only. I also believe that the later 1800-2000hp DB605 engines only ran at those power levels for a few minutes at a time and that max continuous power (non combat climb) was the same as the 1425-1475hp engines, endurance wouldn't change that much. I could be wrong.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The 109 had reached the max it's design could really allow. You can only squeak more performance out so much.

That does not take anything away from it. It was a solid design. It was a mid 1930s design though. I think that says a lot (same for the Spitfire) that it was able to remain competative and dangerous right up to the end.