Myths, Legends, and Propaganda

[michael rauls]

Just as an aside: Germany, pre-WWI, was far from a democratic country, probably not quite as far away as was Russia, but certainly farther away than the UK or France. The pro-democracy activists were certainly not well-considered by the security forces, and were actively targeted by security services pre-WWI. Post-WWI, when the pro-democracy activists had control of the government, the security services actively supported the anti-democracy forces, such as the Freikorps. Had the Weimar government had reliable security services, the Freikorps would have been suppressed. No government will countenance armed rebellion, and no government will write into its basic law a right to armed revolt.

Trying to get back onto the topic of WWII Wehrmacht behavior.

There are two broad categories of war crimes: "ordinary" war crimes, such as using civilians as hostages, massive reprisals against civilians in an attempt to suppress partisan activity, and "extraordinary" war crimes, like genocide. Western Allies' armies were innocent of the second (one can argue that the Soviet Armies were guilty of the second during their suppression of reconquered territory, such as Ukraine); the WWII Heer was not, as the Wehrmacht was not loath to support the extermination of peoples in the invaded lands to the east of Germany. Did any German general or field marshal ever write a letter to his high command that mass murder of Jews or Rom should be stopped? High ranking military officers are supposed to exercise judgment, not be unthinking automata, so such letters would not be outside of normal expectations. One may not expect low-level officers or other ranks to exercise moral judgment concerning their orders, but they are still not automata. One would expect things like letters home to include upset at doing something (while "went into village and killed all the men, women, and children in reprisal for shooting Hauptmann Säuglingsvergewaltiger" would likely be censored, I'm sure that something would get through).

Of course, the major reason for the German invasions eastward was to replace the Slavic populations that were living there: the numbers would be reduced by starvation and the remaining population enslaved. At best, this would be "ethnic cleansing" (what marketing genius thought that up for mass murder and forced migration?); in the real world this would be genocide. It's just that nobody had thought of that word yet.

Many in command
did more than write letters. They gave there lives trying to stop it. Certainly this was a minority percentage but it was not insignificant like one or or a couple a dozen guys either . And I have read letters home on one website and heard them quoted on two documentaries of German soldiers who expressed much angst about what was happening. Again a minority but I don't think an insignificant one.
The point being that even in an evil empire if I may borrow a phrase, there are always at least a few who will hold onto there conscience and do what's right. Even if it costs them there lives.

 

[michael rauls]

No US soldier was executed for disobeying orders, but 1 was for desertion and 102 were for rape. The amount of rape by the US forces during the invasion of Normandy was so high it caused dismay among the French resistance. This is also why President Macron went to the memorial for the French resistance rather than the Omaha Beach memorial during the 75th anniversary last year.

That's really depressing if true.

 

[swampyankee]

That's really depressing if true.

Historically, rape has not been taken very seriously by large portions of the legal or law enforcement community, including within the services. This is largely true today, where there are many reported cases of military commanders suppressing rape prosecutions (bluntly, military commanders should not usually have the authority to interfere in a criminal case, even within the military judicial system, nor should a mayor, governor, or president) and many of judges giving idiotically light sentences to rapists: witness the Stamford rapist and, worse, a near-simultaneous case in Ohio, where a judge essentially gave a rapist a free pass after conviction by the jury. Given that rape hasn't been treated as a serious crime in many cases, especially if the victim is seen as from a lower class, large numbers of rapes, while appalling, aren't surprising.

 

[redcoat]

The German gun laws in the mid-latter part of the 30's were more aimed at the Jewish population, restricting not only firearm ownership, but any form of weapon. These laws also included manufacturing, selling or distributing of weapons even if the company was partly owned by Jews.

There's plenty of "articles" on the subject floating around out there, as with any subject, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The Nazi laws reduced the restrictions impose on gun ownership for the overwhelming majority of the German population, but they made it illegal for non-citizens to own guns, after they had removed full citizenship from Germans of the Jewish faith.

 

[pgf_666]

Many in command
did more than write letters. They gave there lives trying to stop it. Certainly this was a minority percentage but it was not insignificant like one or or a couple a dozen guys either . And I have read letters home on one website and heard them quoted on two documentaries of German soldiers who expressed much angst about what was happening. Again a minority but I don't think an insignificant one.
The point being that even in an evil empire if I may borrow a phrase, there are always at least a few who will hold onto there conscience and do what's right. Even if it costs them there lives.

It seems that one of the few, or even only, way to get out of guard duty at one of the camps was to volunteer for service in the W.S.S. on the Eastern Front, at ba time when it was generally accepted that this was a virtual death sentence. And, according to one article I read decades ago--I have trouble sometimes, remembering what I had for breakfast--even though I'm still eating it!--so don't expect me to remember the source now.....

Anyway, they claimed that about half the guards so volunteered. (Most used the excuse that it was below the dignity of an 'SS-Mann' to have to deal with Jews on a regular basis, but this may have been the only 'politically correct' phrase anyone could think up. Certainly saying that it was illegal and immoral to kill Jews wasn't likely to be looked on with a great deal of favor....)

And....while not enforced in that conflict, even today, under the UCMJ, the penalty for disobeying a legal and direct order in a combat zone is death...and the officer giving the order is authorized to enforce that himself.

And furthermore....I first read about the Nazi-era non-gun control laws in the '70s, in a historical article on gun-control and its long trem effects,from the NRA. One of the points that they made was that civilian ownership of a wide range of military grade weapons--including true (fully automatic) assault rifles--made the job of invading armies a lot harder.

And, of course, pointing out that virtually all such laws had the peculiar attribute that they never seemed to apply to the guys who wrote them....

 

[swampyankee]

One of the great fears of the German Army in Belgium and the Prussian Army before that was francs-tireurs. Their method of dealing was massive retaliation against civilians.

 

[michael rauls]

It seems that one of the few, or even only, way to get out of guard duty at one of the camps was to volunteer for service in the W.S.S. on the Eastern Front, at ba time when it was generally accepted that this was a virtual death sentence. And, according to one article I read decades ago--I have trouble sometimes, remembering what I had for breakfast--even though I'm still eating it!--so don't expect me to remember the source now.....

Anyway, they claimed that about half the guards so volunteered. (Most used the excuse that it was below the dignity of an 'SS-Mann' to have to deal with Jews on a regular basis, but this may have been the only 'politically correct' phrase anyone could think up. Certainly saying that it was illegal and immoral to kill Jews wasn't likely to be looked on with a great deal of favor....)

And....while not enforced in that conflict, even today, under the UCMJ, the penalty for disobeying a legal and direct order in a combat zone is death...and the officer giving the order is authorized to enforce that himself.

And furthermore....I first read about the Nazi-era non-gun control laws in the '70s, in a historical article on gun-control and its long trem effects,from the NRA. One of the points that they made was that civilian ownership of a wide range of military grade weapons--including true (fully automatic) assault rifles--made the job of invading armies a lot harder.

And, of course, pointing out that virtually all such laws had the peculiar attribute that they never seemed to apply to the guys who wrote them....

I had forgotten about the getting out of service at the death camps by volunteering for the eastern front. Ya, I've read that also a few times. Would be interesting to know how many guys preferred to face almost certain death rather than participate at what was going on in those camps.