N1K2 "George" vs. P-38L - Describe Best Tactics for Both Sides

[Conslaw]

I have read combat accounts of the IJN's late war fighter, the N1K2 Shinden Kai, which the Allies called the "George", but I have never read any accounts of any encounters between that plane and the P-38L. Here's your chance to argue for either side.

 

[Conslaw]

My first thought is that Shinden-Kai matches up very well against the P-38. The automatic combat flaps give the Shinden a tight turn radius even at speeds that the zero can't match. the lower workload for the pilot is completely the opposite of the P-38, where the P-38 in order to maximize its dogfighting capability has to work two throttles to take advantage of asymetrical thrust and torque. Neither plane seems to have a commanding climb or dive advantage. The P-38 is faster, but not necessarily quicker. The P-38 is the bigger target. The Shinden has more firepower with 4x 20mm. The P-38 has a gun-range advantage with its centralized armament not needing to converge horizontally. With equal pilots, I say the edge goes to the Shinden-Kai. What do you think?

 

[GregP]

The P-38 is in a LOT of trouble if he has to work the throttles asymmetrically. It means he is near a stall and nowhere NEAR is best speed for turning, against one of Japan's top fighters of the war (Ki-84, N1K2-J, J2M, Ki-100 ... in no particular order).

I'd have to think about this one ... for tactics ... but the myth of getting P-38 advantage from asymmetrical thrust is largely that, a myth. If you do it just right, in just the right circumstance, just above stall, then it COULD help. If you miss it, especially down low, you migh / would be dead. There was never a raason to get that slow in combat for a good pilot, and asymmetric thrust at 300 knots doesn't seem like a great idea, especially if you are trying to aim a gyro gunsight that is guaranteed to not understand what you are currently doing.

 

[taly01]

The Shiden-Kai weighs half of a P-38L... The P-38L would always want a high speed fight, to maximise powered aileron rolls and using climbing power with fast pitch nose, where the Shiden-Kai would use more rolling turns, tightening with his auto-combat flaps at apexs.

I would think the Shiden-Kai maneouverability would be the advantage over the P-38L (at least below 20,000ft) above that the P-38L has better altitude power and would run rings around it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The P-38 is in a LOT of trouble if he has to work the throttles asymmetrically. It means he is near a stall and nowhere NEAR is best speed for turning, against one of Japan's top fighters of the war (Ki-84, N1K2-J, J2M, Ki-100 ... in no particular order).

I'd have to think about this one ... for tactics ... but the myth of getting P-38 advantage from asymmetrical thrust is largely that, a myth. If you do it just right, in just the right circumstance, just above stall, then it COULD help. If you miss it, especially down low, you migh / would be dead. There was never a raason to get that slow in combat for a good pilot, and asymmetric thrust at 300 knots doesn't seem like a great idea, especially if you are trying to aim a gyro gunsight that is guaranteed to not understand what you are currently doing.

"I was able to stay inside this maneuverable little rascal's left turn for 360 degrees while doing about 90MPH, and at less than 1000' above the water. That P-38J was bucking and shuddering all the way around in what was nothing more nor less than a controlled stall. I was so close to the Oscar that his engine oil covered my windshield. For the last half of the turn I was shooting at a dark blur that finally burst into-flames. When I saw the Oscar explode I pulled up and started calling for someone to lead me home cause I couldn't see through the oil on my windshield."

Secrets of a P-38 Ace. John Tilley's electrifying story

 

[BiffF15]

I would think the P-38 would have an advantage in roll to the right, and some slow speed maneuvering as well based on lack of torque effect (much less fear of a stall induced spin).

Cockpit ergonomics prior to fight or if jumped are complex and potentially life threateningly slow, however once established in the fight the flight control workload would be less (I'm thinking anyway) due to less fear of spinning while aggressively maneuvering near the stall (sands high drag external tanks).

Shiden-Kai has the maneuvering flaps, 4 cannons, and is fighting nearer to home.

Meeting nose to nose, pre-merge advantage goes to P38 for shots (concentrated firepower), with initial turn going to Lightning up high and swinging to the the Shiden-Kai as altitude drops.

From there it becomes the battle of who uses their weapon better than the other. Both live if the guy going defensive recognizes it with enough time, airspeed and angles to leave. Otherwise only one gets to log a landing post fight.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The P-38 is in a LOT of trouble if he has to work the throttles asymmetrically. It means he is near a stall and nowhere NEAR is best speed for turning, against one of Japan's top fighters of the war (Ki-84, N1K2-J, J2M, Ki-100 ... in no particular order).

Why get into a knife fight in the first place? If your P-38s start with an energy advantage, boom and zoom and let the second section finish him off. If he's bouncing you, break hard right, haul ass, and do the Lightning high speed shallow climb. George's difficulty with high speed right turns should give you enough head start to allow a reversal into a head-on pass where your longer-range concentrated firepower gives you the advantage.
If your name is George, you want to sucker Flashboy into a slow speed left turning circular fight draining off altitude down to where any performance advantage he may have is negated.
Y'all have fun now, hear?
Wes

 

[GregP]

The P-38CAN be worked near stall, but it puts you at a severe disadvantage if you don't make the kill and the Zero finds out you are hunting him while he is still intact, because low-speed maneuverability is the complete perview of the Zero. It is the deadliest fighter of WWII at 180 mph, and pretty much the same up to 250 mph. To get an advantage that cannot be stolen back, the P-38 needed speed.

That's according to P-38 pilots of the war who have spoken at various presentations. If anyone wants to hear more from them or in person, the 1st Saturday in Feb will feature our P-38 flying (weather permitting) and some former P-38 pilots (at this time). Welcome one and all.

You can ALWAYS find an opposite opinion for almost any position from someone who didn't see it quite that way. But when 40 guys say it was true and one says it wasn't, that kind of points the finger in the right direction for me.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

The P-38CAN be worked near stall, but it puts you at a severe disadvantage if you don't make the kill and the Zero finds out you are hunting him while still intact, becasue low-speed maneuverability is the complete perview of the Zero. It is thne dealiest fighter of WWII at 180 mph, and pretty much the same up to 250 mph. To get an advantage that cannot be stolen back, the P-38 needed speed.

Just ask Tommy McGuire.

 

[GregP]

Don't have to. He stalled out and crashed trying low-speed crap with drop tanks still attached.

Dead is a good enough answer. He was reportedly a "master" at it and it killed him. Think of a rookie ... or anyone not "master-like ...

Pretty darned good thing to think about when fighting a P-38. If you were CAUGHT a low speed and HAD to, that's one thing. If you had a choice, it wasn't very smart. Yes, he got some Japanese planes, but by no means most of them while fighting slow. Bong knew better, and he died too, but not in a P-38 in combat.

 

[taly01]

Apparently McGuire flew his P-38 so hard they often came back with wings at odd angles, some of his wingmen complained that it was hell just trying to keep up with him! I think in 1945 the G-suit also was available to allied pilots!

 

[GregP]

Tommy McGuire died on 7 Jan 1945, so he didn't have much time to use it.

There are MANY guys today who can stand 9 g for very short time ... 2 - 4 seconds, but all will black outr after ,say, 45 seconds. Perhaps Maj. McGuire was one of those guys who could handle g-force ... I don't claim to know at all.

But I'm not too sure he had many g-suits while he was alive and flying.

Then again, I've never looked into it, either ... so maybe that's not the case. Either way, he tried low-speed stuff once too often. It's sort of like working on circuits that have power applied. You can get away with it ... right up until you don't.

Maybe the same can be said for ALL combat, though.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Tommy McGuire died on 7 Jan 1945, so he didn't have much time to use it.

There are MANY guys today who can stand 9 g for very short time ... 2 - 4 seconds, but all will black outr after ,say, 45 seconds. Perhaps Maj. McGuire was one of those guys who could handle g-force ... I don't claim to know at all.

But I'm not too sure he had many g-suits while he was alive and flying.

G suits (somewhat primitive) were available to 8th AF pilots in the last months of the war, but many of the "old hands" refused to wear them. SW Pacific was a more primitive place with a challenging environment at the end of a very long supply chain, and imbued with a "can do" attitude. Short of Gen. Kenney personally cinching him into it, I can't imagine the likes of Tommy McGuire voluntarily strapping one on. The complaint of veteran pilots was "It changes your seat-of-pants feel for the aircraft!" I can vouch that in 1973 that was still true. On my jet rides we pulled to the edge of buffet while demonstrating ACM maneuvers. The pilots could feel it, I couldn't, which amused them considerably. Like being squeezed in a vise between two rather thin pillows.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[XBe02Drvr]

A high-G barrel roll or a vertical rolling scissors can be a mind-bending experience to the uninitiated. Trying to keep the opponent in sight while you're mostly greyed out and you're not sure where sky and earth are, and your head weighs a ton and your eyes are full of sweat and your poorly fitted G-suit is squeezing your crotch and the backs of your knees is about the most fun you can have with your clothes on! Glad somebody else was driving. When I finally got my vision back we were practically canopy to canopy. I would have hit him. He slipped out in front, and as we were in a (theoretically) cannon-equipped TA-4, we got to score a kill.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[BiffF15]

Gents,

There is a huge difference between 9 G's for a few seconds, and the same sustained for 20+ seconds. You can hold your breath, tense your legs, squeeze your abs and make it through a break turn (max performance turn) in most aircraft (lots of "it depends", altitude, airspeed, airframe, pilot proficiency, getting on your anti G maneuver prior to pulling on the stick, how easy or tough it is to max the aircraft) for the most part. Trust me, I have experienced it enough to have gravel in my neck and constant lower back pain.

The key is to know how to tense your body, and to do so prior to pulling on the stick (or yoke in the P-38 world). Tall / lanky body types usually have a lower resting G tolerance than short, stocky types. It's the heart to brain distance, or you want the hydraulic pump as close to the computer as you can get it. There is also a big difference between being the guy pulling on the stick and a passenger. The flight docs in my squadron used to ask to fly with me, and I never thought anything of it (figured it was my sparkling personality and sarcastic wit). In reality they liked that I would say hang on before a big pull (didn't realize I was doing it), which helped most of the time to keep them awake. Regardless, I have put more than one to sleep (and not in the bar telling there I was stories)!

First few sorties you are dying, then all of a sudden your body has adapted, and you are tensed at the right time, and for the correct duration, and bingo you are good to go. It doesn't take long for you and your body to adapt. You are pulling heavy G, talking on the radio, flying the plane, and employing weapons all the while not hitting or allowing anyone to hit you. Most fun you can have with clothes on!

I spoke with Sean Tucker after he got a Hornet ride (7.5 G jet, or not a G monster of an aircraft in todays sense) and he couldn't believe how different sustained felt.

The Blue Angels fly without G suits (I don't agree with this business practice, but it's not my call).

When you are excited (adrenaline spike), at speed greater than corner velocity (above the min speed to pull max G) and you get engaged (into a fight), your G tolerance is much higher than normal. I have seen experienced pilots, myself included, over G jets in the heat of the battle. My quandary was I liked to fly the jet as close to the edge as possible to gain whatever miniscule advantage that would net.

I have flown a plane (OV-10 Bronco) that had a G suit but no air-conditioning, and my biggest complaint was the heat it generated and the sweat / dehydration it caused. I imagine if I were in the South Pacific and the option existed, I would have passed on the G suit. In Europe, at the altitudes they flew, particularly in the winter, I would have welcomed it.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[GregP]

Hi Biff,

When I said that *9 g for a few seconds, I had piston aerobatics in mid. Making a "square corner" in a Pitss Special or a Yak-52 can generate a LOT of g-force, but it doesn't last long because the turn rate means you complete the corner rapidly.

When I said 35 seconds, I had an F-15 in mind; specifically a sustained high-g situation which may or may not be frequent ... but which I have heard about and seen on a HUD recording.

My point was I'm not sure WWII fighters could sustain 8 g long enough to require a g-suit from pilots used to playing in WWII fighters in combat. Maybe, but I don't think any WWII fighter had the power reserves to hold high g for too long without bleeding enough speed to stall. They migh, but certainly not at 20,000+ feet! I doubt they could pull 3+ g at 20,000 feet for more a a couple of seconds without falling out of the sky. At 35+kft, I doubt they could sustain more than a 30° bank in a level turn.

Nothing else intended.

 

[BiffF15]

Greg,

I am in concurrence with you! I was merely adding additional perspective.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Greyman]

My point was I'm not sure WWII fighters could sustain 8 g long enough to require a g-suit from pilots used to playing in WWII fighters in combat. Maybe, but I don't think any WWII fighter had the power reserves to hold high g for too long without bleeding enough speed to stall. They migh, but certainly not at 20,000+ feet! I doubt they could pull 3+ g at 20,000 feet for more a a couple of seconds without falling out of the sky. At 35+kft, I doubt they could sustain more than a 30° bank in a level turn.

If you put in the caveat "and no altitude may be lost" then I agree. But in real life it's more a factor of 'energy' than power reserve.

If you're at 20,000 feet you have a lot of potential blackout opportunity.

 

[GregP]

Level turn.

In WW2, I mean level.

lf it isn't it ALWAYS goes down, even you start up in a vertical. No aerobatics ... combat.