Nakajama HA-45 Hamore engine

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Well, I need to thank you for stuff I've learned, or been made to learn :)

Unfortunately, it seems that we don't have any hard data for the Homare (and other Japanese engines) operating on 100/130 fuel (while in Allied hands)?
 
Yes, I'm aware of the documents posted in Williams' site (thanks for the links, other people will find them worthwhile as I do), again only the 92 oct fuel is stated there.
 
Not sure what do you mean by 'early R-3350 was more relaible at 2000 than the Merlin'. Is the 2000 the HP engine was developing?

Yes 2000 hp. The R-3350-A passed its 150 hour type test at 2000 hp in 1939. The Merlin could just pass the 7.5 hour WER test at 2000 hp mid 1944 with 150PN fuel.

Not sure how well we can make a comparison.
Eg. UK was producing great inlines, the radials were not that great. So Japanese loose on inlines, but win at radials? In USA, the R-2800 is the paragon of excellence, other ones are either utterly reliable, but of modest power, while the R-3350 is at the opposite. The R-2600 was a great bomber engine, not so for fighter applications. Japanese have the decent engines to provide high power, and their low and mid power offer is good one.
If we include Germany, their radials were either decent, but unremarkable 9 cylinders, and BMW-801, that took time to iron out it's bugs, needing the fan to work properly, while using fuel as ADI - not good for a country lacking fuel?

Bristol's engines were every bit as good as P&W's or Wright's. Further more I would not describe the Mercury, Peguses, Bramo 323, BMW 132, R-1820, or the R-1830 as modest power engines. These engines were as comparable to their contemporary liquid cooled engines as their late war counterparts were to their contemporaries. Most of these engines did not see further major development because of their small size and cooling limitations.

The BMW 801's need for a cooling fan was largely dictated by the cowling desgin rather than any limitations of the engine. Nor did the 801 need C-3 injection any more than the R-2800 needed water injection.
 
Yes 2000 hp. The R-3350-A passed its 150 hour type test at 2000 hp in 1939. The Merlin could just pass the 7.5 hour WER test at 2000 hp mid 1944 with 150PN fuel.

Thanks for clarification.
It's unfair to compare the HP of the 3350 cu in with HP of the 1650, isn't it? The V-3420 was twice as powerful as the V-1710, because it was displacing twice as much. Or, no engine (worth speaking about) under 2000 cu in, was able to pass the the test at 2000 HP, bar Merlin and V-1710. Great engines.

Bristol's engines were every bit as good as P&W's or Wright's.

Bristol did not have in offering the equivalents of R-1830, nor of R-2800.

Further more I would not describe the Mercury, Peguses, Bramo 323, BMW 132, R-1820, or the R-1830 as modest power engines. These engines were as comparable to their contemporary liquid cooled engines as their late war counterparts were to their contemporaries. Most of these engines did not see further major development because of their small size and cooling limitations.

I can't remember talking about hose engines as being of modest power. They were of modest size, agreed about that. The manufacturers moved on, to produce bigger engines, smaller engines being either phased out, or receiving small upgrades.

The BMW 801's need for a cooling fan was largely dictated by the cowling desgin rather than any limitations of the engine.

Even with fan, it took time for the BMW-801 to achieve reliability comparable with other mainstream radials. And it took C3 fuel to be used, for engine to make more than 1310 PS at altitude.

Nor did the 801 need C-3 injection any more than the R-2800 needed water injection.

?
R-2800 (and Homare) needed water injection to make more power (plus 100/130 PN fuel), 801 needed C3 injection to make more power - along with C3 it's already using.
Since the R-2800 powered fighters were big brutes, any HP increase was needed. The large size of R-2800 (if one wants 2-stage or turbo under the hood) neccessitated big airframes, unlike the Japanese engines needed.
 
Hallo gentlemen,
questions for too high cylinder heads temperatures (385 °C during 3 minutes run at 2900 rpm) is most probably beside the point.

Second scanned file at post 23 (image 218199d1354895357-nakajama-ha-45-hamore-engine-slide1 jpg):

...last 15 minute test period at 2500 rpm, manifold pressure 36 in Hg, cylinder head temperature 375 °F. (About 190.6 Centigrades.)

(...)

During the 3 minute test run at 2900 rpm, manifold pressure 48.5 in Hg, cylinder head temperature 385 °C.

In my opinion this is only error by re-typiing data to this report (scanned files — many thanks for it). In 3 min. test run may be correctly typed 385 °F (about 196 °C). 385 Centigrades it is nonsense — this temperatures is too high for any aluminium alloy, material for cylinder heads. (Or not? But, for any reason cylinder head temperature rise at only 3 min. run from only moderate temperature 375 °F — at 2500 rpm — to 385 °C/725 °F?)

P.S. I am sorry for my not-too-good english.
 
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427 mph is just an estimate data of TAIC, the original manuscript was an ESTIMATE for 92 octane fuel, and I think the ture speed of Ki-84 is about 650-660kph (lower than P-51C for 92 octane fuel, see the captured 44-10816).

About the fuel, I've saw an inventory statistic for 32 airfields in Kanto region of Army in Aug 22, 1945, shows that the usable capacity ratio of 95,91,87 octane fuel is about 1 :6 :1
 
I believe these are the actual power measures taken durning the engine tests after overhaul. Unfortunately we don't have the engine run charts but the documents references them so I believe these numbers are based on engine test stand figures. Also included is a description of the function of the ADI system. Enjoy

Hello Krieghund,

Do you happen to have any more pages of this report? If so, please post more.
I am curious as to what exactly was done to the aircraft to prepare it for testing.

- Ivan.
 
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This thread was brought to my attention lately, and I'm generally not a fan of posting in long forgotten threads but when its so specific and I can somehow contribute, then I do so.

It was asked what were testing procedures of Japanese engines and how much they had to endure before acceptance (with remark that most likely they would not be able to pass US tests. I have my doubts with last claim, at least some of them like Sakae engines should have no issues in passing those since they were incredibly reliable. Ask GregP how many problems they had with their Sakae in A6M5 in Planes of Fame museum :) )

But ad rem, I received lately a document titled "Regulations for Acceptance Tests of Aircraft Engines. Administrative Equipment Order (Nairei hei) No. 83" from October 1942. Document was captured on Saipan in July 1944 and translated under Item No. 9777 position (Cincpac-Cincpoa special translation).

The document lists exact definitions of terms used in testing aircraft engines at the Air Technical Deport. Document sets forth the specific conditions, procedures and objectives of those engine structural and operational tests and in addition gives the minimum government specifications and performance requirements.
Document is revision of similar Orders given on January 1927, then revised subsequently on June 1933, August 1934, May 1939 and January 1939.
As you may see Japanese had set their own regulations and requirements from the very moment they became capable of independent manufacturing of aircraft engines (albeit first ones were licensed engines from various European companies).

Sidenote - I will not quote whole document but only parts of it, as it is way too long. But most important things should be here to give you a point. Also, first will be given explanations on terms and only after the procedures. I think that way you will be able to distinguish differences easier.

"Chapter I - Introduction

Item 1 - The following specify the regulations which concern aircraft engine acceptance tests.

Item 2 - The purpose of aircraft engine acceptance tests is to assess the practical value of the engine's construction, performance, reliability and endurance.

Item 3 - The OinC (Naval Air Headquarters) will specify separate regulations, based on the present ones, for the acceptance tests of special type engines which are not adequately covered by these regulations.

Item 4 - Besides these regulations, separate regulations for aircraft engine construction and repair tests should be used.

Item 5 - Details of test procedure will follow procedures established separately by OinC.

Item 6 - When tests are to be carried out according to these regulations, the OinC, will notify the departments concerned.

Item 7 - Acceptance tests conducted under these regulations will be made on the following engines :
1) Experimental engines
2) Engines which are judged to need acceptance tests after modifications.
3) Others which are judged to need acceptance tests.

Item 8 - Acceptance tests will be subdivided as follows :
1) Structural tests
2) Operational tests

Item 9 - The entire acceptance test procedure is to be followed for experimental engines.

(...)

Item 13 - Instruments, machines, equipment, and units of measurement used during tests and inspections must be approved by the OinC.

Item 14 - Tests of experimental engines will be conducted on engines for which tests have been completed at the factory. These tests will follow the procedure for tests of engine performance and second operational tests on the same model engine as determined by these regulations.

Chapter II - General Rules

Item 18 - The rated output of an aircraft engine is the output at rated altitude and rated horsepower (HP). For engines with variable speed superchargers, the rated output at first rated altitude and at rated HP.

Item 19 - When the rated output of an engine is 300 HP or less, multiples of 5 HP will be used, and when greater than 300 HP, multiples of 10 HP will be used to indicate output.

Item 20 - To indicate various manifold pressures, multiples of 5 millimeters will be used.

Item 21 - To indicate various revolutions per minute (RPM), multiples of 20 or 50 RPM will be used.

Item 22 - To indicate rated altitude, multiples of 200 or 500 meters will be used.

Item 23 - Terms used in the regulations are defined as follows :
1. Manifold pressure - The difference between absolute cylinder intake air pressure and standard atmospheric pressure (measured in mm of mercury).

2. Rated Manifold Pressure - The maximum pressure permissible for a period of not more than 30 minutes continuous operation.

3. Take-off manifold pressure - Maximum manifold pressure permissible for not more than one minute continuous operation during take-off. In emergencies, three minutes continuous operation is permissible.

4. Normal maximum manifold pressure - Maximum manifold pressure permissible for continuous operation over several hours.

5. Engine RPM - Crankshaft revolutions per minute

6. Rated RPM - Maximum RPM permissible for not more than 30 minutes continuous operation.

7. Take-off RPM - Maximum RPM permissible for not more than one minute continuous operation during take-of.
In emergencies, three minutes operation is permissible.

8. Normal maximum RPM - Maximum RPM permissible for continuous operation over several hours.

9. High speed RPM - Max RPM permissible for glide or dive operations.

10. Idling RPM - Minimum practical RPM

11. Altitude - Height measured in meters under standard atmospheric conditions.

12. Rated altitude - Max altitude at which rated manifold pressure can be maintained at rated RPM.

13. Horsepower - One horsepower equals work done at rate of 75 kilogram meters per second.

14. Rated HP at sea level - Shaft HP developed at rated manifold pressure, rated RPM, under standard (sea level) atmospheric conditions.

15. Take-off HP - Shaft HP developed at take-off manifold pressure and take-off RPM under standard (sea level) atmospheric conditions.

16. Normal maximum HP at sea level - Shaft HP developed at normal maximum manifold pressure and normal maximum RPM under standard atmospheric conditions.

(...)

26. Rated operation - Operation at rated manifold pressure and rated RPM.

27. Rated HP operation - Operation at sea level rated HP and rated RPM.

28. Take-off operation - Operation at take-off manifold pressure and take-off RPM.

29. Take-off HP operation - Operation at take-off HP and take-off RPM.

(...)

33. High speed operation - Operation at high speed RPM with output of 50% or less of sea level rated HP.

(...)

46. Cruising permitted cylinder (or coolant, lubricating oil) temperature. - Highest temperature permissible during sustained operation over several hours.

47. Cylinder (coolant, lubricating oil) temperature permissible for 30 minutes - Maximum temperature permissible for 30 minutes sustained operation.

48. Permitted maximum cylinder (coolant, lubricating oil) temperature - Maximum temperature permissible for not more than five minutes sustained operation.


Item 24 - As a standard, take-off HP is greater than rated HP at rated altitude.

Item 25 - As a standard, normal maximum manifold pressure is no less than 85 % of the rated manifold pressure.

Item 26 - Take-off RPM is greater than rated RPM.

Item 27 - High speed RPM is no less than 110 % of rated RPM.

Item 28 - Idling speed RPM is no more than 25 % of rated RPM.

Item 29 - Oil temperature permissible for continuous operation is 70 degrees or above at oil pump inlet, while the oil temperature permissible for 30 minutes operation is 85 degrees or above.

Item 30 - Coolant outlet temperature permissible for continuous operation at sea level, using plain water, is 80 degrees or above at engine outlet, while the coolant temperature permissible for 30 minute operation is 90 degrees or above.

Chapter III - Structural Tests

Item 34 - Structural tests based on the various charts, documents and on the actual engine which the manufacturer submits under the stipulations of Item 15 will be made concerning the following points :
1. Suitability of the plans.
2. Suitability of the materials and effectiveness of heat treatment.
3. Ease of handling.
4. Adaptability to airframe.

Chapter IV - Operational tests

Item 35 - Under operational tests, assessment of the performance, reliability and endurance of the engine will be made.

Item 36 - Operational tests are divided as follows :
1. Engine performance test.
2. 1st Operational test.
3. 2nd Operational test.
4. Practical Operational test.

Item 37 - Under engine performance tests, assessment will be made of the items mentioned in the following paragraphs. The details will be determined by the OinC :
1. Sea level performance
2. Altitude performance
3. Suitability of the limits of use of alternate fuels (Translator : Probably refers to use of high octane gasoline for take-off and low octane gasoline for normal flights. [ Hiromachi : Correct presumption, in case of D4Y1 manual it is stated that for take-off is used 100 Octane gasoline and for the rest of the flight a lower grade Av gas. ] ) Suitability of prescribed fuels and lubricants.
4. Various operational conditions, fuel consumption rates, etc.
5. Permitted temperature for a long periods, 30 minute permitted temperature, permitted maximum temperature, and permitted minimum temperature for cylinders, coolant and lubricating oils.
6. Cooling data :
a) Amount of air flow necessary to cool cylinders, area of openings proportional to this amount, difference in air pressure in front and to rear of cylinders, and amount of heat radiated (air cooled engines).
b) Amount of coolant circulation and amount of heat radiated (liquid cooled engine).
c) Amount of lubricating oil circulation and amount of heat radiated.
7. Coolant and lubricating oil circulation in various positions and altitudes.

Item 38 - Engine performance test results, aside from the rate of fuel consumption, will be corrected to standard atmospheric conditions, and recorded in graphic form.

(...)

Item 40 - The practice will be to take readings for engine operational tests, other than during take-off and similar special cases, after the throttle has been kept at a given setting for three minutes or longer.

Item 41 - 1st and 2nd operational tests will be conducted with the full complement of accessories and with a propeller or brake which has an equivalent braking power.

Item 42 - The 1st Operational test will comprise the following essential tests :
1. Dissasembly, measurement and inspection.
2. Manifold pressure operation.
3. Accelerating, starting and stopping operations.
4. Endurance tests (140 hours, adding changeover operation of 20 hours for engines with two speed supercharger, and of 30-40 hours for engines with three speed superchargers).

a) Take-off HP operation (20 hours)
The following tests, lasting ten minutes, will be repeated 120 times :
Idling operation - Five minutes

continous
Take-off HP operation - Five minutes

b) Rated HP operation (25 hours) - An engine equipped with a two speed supercharger will be run the first fifteen hours at low blower and the last ten hours at high blower.

c) Normal HP operation (50 hours)

d) Cruising operation (25 hours)
Five hours at 7/10 of rated HP at SL
Five hours at 6/10 of rated HP at SL
Five hours at 5/10 of rated HP at SL
Five hours at 4/10 of rated HP at SL
Five hours at 3/10 of rated HP at SL

e) Rated HP operation at temperature permissible for 30 minutes ( 10 hours ) - 30 minute permissible temperature for cylinder, coolant and lubricating oil will be maintained.

f) Rated HP operation at permitted maximum temperature (5 hours) - 60 tests, each for five minutes will be made.


g) High speed operation (5 hours)

h) Changeover operation (conducted only on engines with variable speed superchargers) :
Engine with two speed supercharger - 20 hours
Engine with three speed supercharger - 30 or 40 hours

Notes :
1. Tests a, b, c, d, e and f will be conducted at temperature permitted for long periods.


Item 43 - The 2nd operational test will be comprise the following essential tests :
1. Manifold pressure operation
2. Endurance test :
a) Take-off HP operation (10 hours)
The following ten minute continuous tests will be performed 60 times.
Idling operation - Five minutes

continous
Take-off HP operation - Five minutes

b) Rated HP operation (25 hours)

3. Disassembly, measurement and inspection.

Item 44 - The 2nd operational test will be conducted on the same engine which has undergone the 1st operational test.

Item 45 - OinC, may on occasion, order a practical operational test to be conducted on a different engine of the same model instead of an engine which has qualified in both structural and operational tests. "


The document is not complete, I also did not have all the graphs attached and it seems there were subsequent revisions later but this should be enough to give everyone a basic view on the testing procedure.

 
And in case of Ki-84 and its engine power, based on following two documents :
- "Pilots Handbook For Ki-84 (Provisional Draft) " by Army Air Examination Department, Reproduced by AKENO Army Air School, 1st June 1944
- Provisional Pilots Handbook for Ki-84, from January 1944 (captured at Clark Field)

Engine has following performance and restrictions :
Take-off and in Emergency (1 minute) - 2,900 RPM and +400 MP - 1850 HP
Rated (less than 30 minutes) - 2,900 RPM and +250 MP - 1680 HP at 2300 m (1st speed), 1500 HP at 6500 m (2nd speed)
Normal (continuous operation) - 2,600 RPM and + 100 MP -1300 HP at 3000 m (1st speed), 1180 HP at 6900 m (2nd speed)
Economical Cruising speed - 1,800 to 2,000 RPM and -100 to -200 MP
 
I was personally curious how those testing regimes and procedures match the other nations. Especially Germany and US. Hopefully someone who knows more about those could add something :)
 

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