NeilStirling
Airman
- 27
- Oct 6, 2006
Napier Sabre WW2 overview.
- Thread starter NeilStirling
- Start date
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MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Hard reading but most interesting.
Given page 1 ends with para 103 I take it this is part of a much longer document on engine history.
Given page 1 ends with para 103 I take it this is part of a much longer document on engine history.
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
It appears to be the same document that had snippets posted here, images 3, 4 & 5.
ww2aircraft.net
It contains some rather good information on dates of the different marks of Sabre. Thanks for sharing it.
Advantages of sleeve valves for H-24 engines?
That is quite a novel approach to inferring engine reliability. It is worth noting, that an aircraft which crashes and the airframe of which is destroyed or even just written off does not require a new engine for that airframe, and that an aircraft which is lost over enemy terratory does not...
ww2aircraft.net
It contains some rather good information on dates of the different marks of Sabre. Thanks for sharing it.
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
That was before Bristol kindly volunteered to provide Napier with the material and machining information to make sleeves to the required tolerance.
Finding MTBF information after Spring 1943 would be interesting, to see the extent of the improvement.
Finding MTBF information after Spring 1943 would be interesting, to see the extent of the improvement.
It would indeed, since after that time, Pratt & Whitney had to give up their allocation of Precision Rotary Grinders to Napier, for improving their manufacture of (I don't recall which) cylinders or sleeves, delaying production of the R2800 C series engines by about 6 months.
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
This is the P&W R-2800 C series factory in Jan 1943, which is when the centreless grinders were re-directed.
This is possibly the reason Banks was able to pull this off - P&W was not ready for them.
This is possibly the reason Banks was able to pull this off - P&W was not ready for them.
Shortround6
Major General
First engine out of KC was in Dec 1943.
The cost was in 1944 when they built 2,744 engine and production went from 9 in Jan to 475 in Dec with the learning curve/training and so on.
Even a 6 week delay was worth several hundred engines in 1944.
I would love to see a picture of the grinders.
My father worked on a gun factory where one large Broach was delayed about 1 month, which delayed everything one month. It was the largest machine in the factory and had to go in before most of the other machines could be installed, otherwise they would have to take out already installed machines, move them to one side, tear out part of wall, move the broach in, install it, fix the wall and move the other machines back and reinstall them.
The cost was in 1944 when they built 2,744 engine and production went from 9 in Jan to 475 in Dec with the learning curve/training and so on.
Even a 6 week delay was worth several hundred engines in 1944.
I would love to see a picture of the grinders.
My father worked on a gun factory where one large Broach was delayed about 1 month, which delayed everything one month. It was the largest machine in the factory and had to go in before most of the other machines could be installed, otherwise they would have to take out already installed machines, move them to one side, tear out part of wall, move the broach in, install it, fix the wall and move the other machines back and reinstall them.
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
The Queen Mary voyages in 1943 are listed here: Queen Mary - Record of Wartime Cruises - 1943
My geography isn't the best, but it appears that the first trip from the US to Europe in 1943 was on June 1 1943, which is too late to have been used to transport the grinders.
In 1942, the last trip US to Europe was on December 8. I'd guess that the grinders had to be on this voyage.
Can anyone shed more light on the timing of the grinders, i.e. when they were shipped from Sundstrand and when they were installed at Napiers?
My geography isn't the best, but it appears that the first trip from the US to Europe in 1943 was on June 1 1943, which is too late to have been used to transport the grinders.
In 1942, the last trip US to Europe was on December 8. I'd guess that the grinders had to be on this voyage.
Can anyone shed more light on the timing of the grinders, i.e. when they were shipped from Sundstrand and when they were installed at Napiers?
NZTyphoon
Airman 1st Class
Two articles from Flight on the Sabre II (23 March 1944) and Napier engine testing (25 July 1946):
Simon Thomas
Senior Airman
The book "Building Engines for War: Air-Cooled Radial Aircraft Engine Production in Britain and America in World War II" p.240 talking of the Kansas City R-2800-C plant, states:
"The plant was operational by February 1943, and the construction companies completed work on the entire factory complex on July 3, 1943."
It references this document, https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/pnp/habshaer/mo/mo1900/mo1991/data/mo1991data.pdf which on page 7 states:
"By February 18, 1943, the plant was fully operational, cranking out the famous Double Wasp engine."
From SR's post above, the first engine was finished in Dec 1943.
I'm impressed that the photo I posted above of the factory dated 28 Jan 1943 shows it is quite a way from completion, and yet it was in operation on 18 Feb 1943.
I suspect project manager magic, "in operation" vs "fully operational" and loose definitions of mechanical completion might go some way to explain these dates.
"The plant was operational by February 1943, and the construction companies completed work on the entire factory complex on July 3, 1943."
It references this document, https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/pnp/habshaer/mo/mo1900/mo1991/data/mo1991data.pdf which on page 7 states:
"By February 18, 1943, the plant was fully operational, cranking out the famous Double Wasp engine."
From SR's post above, the first engine was finished in Dec 1943.
I'm impressed that the photo I posted above of the factory dated 28 Jan 1943 shows it is quite a way from completion, and yet it was in operation on 18 Feb 1943.
I suspect project manager magic, "in operation" vs "fully operational" and loose definitions of mechanical completion might go some way to explain these dates.
The quoted Merlin hours "between failure" are very strange. In fact, they appear to be a fantasy. The basis of these figures seems to be unstated.
Eng
