Napier sticks with W12 engine layout after Lion?

[tomo pauk]

After the successful Lion, Napier was struggling to make a next best thing, their air-cooled 'H' engines struggling to gain any success in 1930s.
So let's change things - Napier keeps making liquid cooled W12 engines, say a supercharged version of Lion for the starters, and later move on something bigger - 35+- liters for example by mid-1930s? Is that enough to keep RAF and other costumers - domestic and foreign - more likely to buy at Napiers? Possible/likely airframes for such engines?

 

[ThomasP]

They did make a few low altitude supercharged Lions, but only for their racing aeroplanes. Not bad at 1350 BHP at 3600 rpm at +12 lb boost, but I do not know if they could be adapted for a combat environment. An engine like that would be a good replacement for the Taurus, maybe.

 

[fastmongrel]

The problem is Napier's they had been essentially hand building the Lion in small numbers and the factory was described as a rambling collection of workshops with Victorian machinery that should have been in a museum.

Unless a lot of money is invested in a new factory any engine they design is going to suffer a similar fate to the Sabre. It took English Electric a couple of years to take over the company and build a new factory with new machines to sort the Sabre.

 

[tomo pauk]

The problem is Napier's they had been essentially hand building the Lion in small numbers and the factory was described as a rambling collection of workshops with Victorian machinery that should have been in a museum.

Unless a lot of money is invested in a new factory any engine they design is going to suffer a similar fate to the Sabre. It took English Electric a couple of years to take over the company and build a new factory with new machines to sort the Sabre.

I've already read about the Napier not having modern production facilities.
OTOH - that's another plus with keeping the engines at layout they know and that works. Striving to make a H16 and then H24 engine type is not easing it for them historically, so a known quantity W12 (this time in supercharged flavor), might get them more money than the relative flops the Rapier and Dagger managed (if they managed?). More money = can modernize.

 

[fastmongrel]

I've already read about the Napier not having modern production facilities.
OTOH - that's another plus with keeping the engines at layout they know and that works. Striving to make a H16 and then H24 engine type is not easing it for them historically, so a known quantity W12 (this time in supercharged flavor), might get them more money than the relative flops the Rapier and Dagger managed (if they managed?). More money = can modernize.

Not sure there is enough time to build a new engine get orders and build a new factory to fulfill the orders. Napier's needs to be taken over by a big company that can afford to plow big money into a new factory and employ the best engineers.

English Electric did take over Napier's so maybe an early thirties rather than early forties shift would work. Another candidate might be British Thomson Houston they sort of tinkered with aviation building parts for Whittles first jet engine. Or a real leap how about Nuffield they had a go at aviation engine building but Lord Nuffield fell out with the Air Ministry.

 

[tomo pauk]

Not sure there is enough time to build a new engine get orders and build a new factory to fulfill the orders. Napier's needs to be taken over by a big company that can afford to plow big money into a new factory and employ the best engineers.

Napier historically have had one of best engineers on the payroll from 1928 into early 1940s - Major Frank Halford - that was perhaps crucial in making the H layout engines at Napiers. A brand new factory is not that needed (orders in late 1920s and 1st half of 1930s were more in dozens than hundreds, let alone in thousands), rather the update with new tooling. For late 1930s yes, major expansion is needed.

English Electric did take over Napier's so maybe an early thirties rather than early forties shift would work. Another candidate might be British Thomson Houston they sort of tinkered with aviation building parts for Whittles first jet engine. Or a real leap how about Nuffield they had a go at aviation engine building but Lord Nuffield fell out with the Air Ministry.

Okay, after everything is said and done, Napier probably can win more costumers with, 1st, supercharged Lion and then with 'big W12' than with H engines, and make a more substantial contribution to the UK/Allied war effort.

 

[fastmongrel]

big W12

Make it inverted and you could have some interesting aircraft designs.

The Italian Issota Fraschini company built W18s.
Isotta Fraschini Asso 750 - Wikipedia

 

[swampyankee]

A significant problem with Napier was that they didn't have a very good handle on their market, and the engines they were building didn't have one of the most important features for an aircraft engine: reliability. Because of Napier's production shortcomings and, likely, shortcomings in engine testing procedures, it took significant outside assistance to get the Sabre to an acceptable level of quality. Rather tellingly, it was never applied to any production aircraft other than the closely-related Typhoon and Tempest.

Two areas they could have gone into were high speed marine diesels, based on their license-built Jumo engines, and, as the OP suggested, a modern 12 or 18 cylinder engine.

 

[tomo pauk]

Make it inverted and you could have some interesting aircraft designs.

The Italian Issota Fraschini company built W18s.
Isotta Fraschini Asso 750 - Wikipedia

...
Two areas they could have gone into were high speed marine diesels, based on their license-built Jumo engines, and, as the OP suggested, a modern 12 or 18 cylinder engine.

My idea is the same as in the 1st post here - Napier sticks with what worked for them.

 

[Shortround6]

See: Napier Lion History

a chart from that article.

Now please note that
1. only the VIID was supercharged.
2. these are pretty much sea level ratings.
3. there is no time limit attached to these ratings.
4. the higher ratings, especially supercharged, were reach with a special racing fuel and not any sort of aviation gasoline.

The Lion was a 24 liter engine and so was about 10% smaller than a Merlin, so you either need to spin it 10% faster or use higher boost to get the same power.
Getting the Lion (or derivative) to make close to the same power as a Merlin might be possible but the engine is going to need to gain several hundred pounds to do so.

 

[tomo pauk]

See: Napier Lion History

a chart from that article.

Now please note that
1. only the VIID was supercharged.
2. these are pretty much sea level ratings.
3. there is no time limit attached to these ratings.
4. the higher ratings, especially supercharged, were reach with a special racing fuel and not any sort of aviation gasoline.

The Lion was a 24 liter engine and so was about 10% smaller than a Merlin, so you either need to spin it 10% faster or use higher boost to get the same power.

Thank you for that.
So basically, the VIID might serve as a basis for a supercharged Lion for military purposes. We probably might expect power being perhaps 10% greater than RR Kestrel of same generation and same fuel, or in the ballpark with HS 12Y. Or, in other words, 'altitude power' of perhaps 700+ HP on 77 oct, and 800-850 on 87 oct?

Getting the Lion (or derivative) to make close to the same power as a Merlin might be possible but the engine is going to need to gain several hundred pounds to do so.

I'd rather have Napier going with a W12 of 35+-L for second half of 1930s.

 

[ThomasP]

Napier Lioness was an inverted supercharged variant of the Lion, only used for race planes as far as I know.