Naval engagements with 16 inch guns

[pinehilljoe]

I have an audio copy of James Hornfischers Neptune's Inferno. In the chapter on the Second Guadalcanal Battle, the narrator states the Japanese were the first to receive 16" fire. This was corrected in the Kindle edition. Rodney fires on Bismarck. Did Rodney or Nelson engage any other ships prior to Nov 1942?

 

[Milosh]

Rodney (fired 340 16-inch shells) engaged the Bismarck in May 1941.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Yes, Rodney may be the ship that can take credit for the first 16 inch shell fire. I can't find if Nelson or Rodney fired on enemy ships prior to the Bismarck. Also if Nagato or Mutso fired on Chinese ships prior to the May 1941.

 

[Brooke]

Rodney (fired 340 16-inch shells) engaged the Bismarck in May 1941.

Hi Pinehilljoe: I have a theory that, like torpedoes that also use a fire control computer made by Ford Instrument, 16" guns have a range (how far they go) that far exceeds their ability to hit anything. Can you tell me the longest range at which a 16" gun hit it's target and how many shots were required?
Torpedoes
Torpedo Data Computer (TDC) Patents

 

[pinehilljoe]

Have to research and see if Maryland's firing at Suriago Straight was farther than Washington and South Dakota at Guadalcanal.

 

[parsifal]

Very rarely were 16" BBs used in surface action.

HMS Nelson was first deployed in the North Sea in October 1939, where she may have fired her guns against a DKM formation of cruisers and DDs all of which easily evaded her

Off of Truk atoll 16 February 1944, Iowa and New Jersey engaged the IJN DD Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history. Some reports indicated the near misses caused splinter damage and casualties to the crew, but this is not confirmed in IJN sources. . The Nowaki was able to escape due to the range and her speed. The action against the Nowaki was part of Operation Hailstone. This was the only known surface engagements that Iowa class BBs engaged in. In the action they participated in the sinking of the IJN CL Katori, the DD Maikaze, and the aux CL Akagi Maru.

 

[fliger747]

Guadalcanal was a very short range night battle, almost point blank for the 16" 45 cal weapons on Washington and South Dakota. Krishina, armed with 8 14" weapons was armored more against cruiser fire with about an 8" main belt. Washington achieved maybe as many as 20 hits in a five minute period, especially devastating were the near waterline hits. This destroyed much watertight integrity on the second deck and a counter flooding was used to keep the ship on an even keel, the ship now lower in the water suffered progressive and massive flooding above the deck armor. The free water plane created eventually resulted in large instability and capsize.

Washington used radar gun control very effectively and was not damaged in any way during the fight. South Dakota attracted both Krishima and cruiser fire have suffered many non serious maladies form extensive shell hits in the superstructure. None of the several strikes by Krishima on the main armor penetrated. Descriptions of damage on the upper works of Krishima by 16" shells indicated holes and torn metal 10 meters across. The holes below the waterline were quite small by comparison, but internal damage wrecked watertight integrity and caused the eventual loss of the ship.

Maximum range did not just depend on the caliber of the shells. This would be determined by available elevation, initial velocity and ballistic coefficient of the shell. For instance the Alaska's 12" shells with their high sectional density had a range about the same as the 16". For spotting shell fall radar was quite useful, and before that the use of spotter planes.

 

[parsifal]

Probably the most comprehensive after action account of the battle.....



http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdf


and here

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Battleship_Action_Guadalcanal.pdf


IJN considered the defeat at the Battles of guadacanal to be more significant than the defeat at midway.......

 

[fliger747]

Yes, I just happened to have re read those yesterday! Willis Lee was a fine commander, a true gunnery expert and personally had been pistol champion. SODAK was a soft kill, put out of effective action by relatively small issues. Bismarck was likewise rendered relatively ineffective early in her final engagement from a shot (probably 8" from Dorsetshire) that took out her forward fire control very early on.

Another hero of later DD battles in the Solomons, Arleigh Burke, was quoted when asked the difference between a good and an outstanding officer... "About ten seconds". Lee shot first, and accurately.

 

[pinehilljoe]

I think ADM Lee was one of the finest surface commander's of the War. James Hornfischer points out in Neptunes Inferno, at the Second Guadalcanal, he was the first Admiral to fight a Naval battle based only on the information he was told (with Radar) and not what he could see. And taking two battleships into Iron Bottom Sound must have required nerves of steel.

 

[pbehn]

Even without penetrating the armour what effect does a 16" shell exploding have on the inside of a ship and its crew?

 

[Shortround6]

Kind of depends on the shell and the target.

AP shells actually have very low amounts of explosive. Customarily around 2% of the shell weight. The US actually used 1.5% so the bursting charge for a US 16 (2700lb) shell was only about 40lbs of ammonium picrate (Explosive D).
However if exploded inside a ship the 2600+lbs of fragments would hole walls/bulkheads and decks 3-6 compartments away. If it explodes outside the blast wave is not that great. but the fragments can riddle non armoured structures of a ship.
The US introduced a thin wall high capacity HE shell for many of it's guns and the explosive content was about 8-8.5% which is still very low compared to aircraft bombs.

 

[juhaerik]

Very rarely were 16" BBs used in surface action.

HMS Nelson was first deployed in the North Sea in October 1939, where she may have fired her guns against a DKM formation of cruisers and DDs all of which easily evaded her

Off of Truk atoll 16 February 1944, Iowa and New Jersey engaged the IJN DD Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history. Some reports indicated the near misses caused splinter damage and casualties to the crew, but this is not confirmed in IJN sources. . The Nowaki was able to escape due to the range and her speed. The action against the Nowaki was part of Operation Hailstone. This was the only known surface engagements that with number of straddlesIowa class BBs engaged in. In the action they participated in the sinking of the IJN CL Katori, the DD Maikaze, and the aux CL Akagi Maru.

Emphasis on "some reports". Yamato hit USS White Plains at 34k yards. Longest ranged ever hit on a moving ship at sea. Capt Sullivans report...

 

[delcyros]

I think NAGATO was present, too, and may have achieved the longest range 16in hit during this action.

These are difficult to verify due to the dynamic course of the battle. The longest confirmed range hit against a moving target remains an 11in hit from the first triple salvo discharged by SCHARNHORST vs GLORIOUS after 45 sec. Flighttime at ca. 28K yd range (the navigational range at firing time was >30kyd)

 

[juhaerik]

Very rarely were 16" BBs used in surface action.

HMS Nelson was first deployed in the North Sea in October 1939, where she may have fired her guns against a DKM formation of cruisers and DDs all of which easily evaded her

Off of Truk atoll 16 February 1944, Iowa and New Jersey engaged the IJN DD Nowaki at a range of 35,700 yards and straddled her, setting the record for the longest-ranged straddle in history. Some reports indicated the near misses caused splinter damage and casualties to the crew, but this is not confirmed in IJN sources. . The Nowaki was able to escape due to the range and her speed. The action against the Nowaki was part of Operation Hailstone. This was the only known surface engagements that Iowa class BBs engaged in. In the action they participated in the sinking of the IJN CL Katori, the DD Maikaze, and the aux CL Akagi Maru.

Emphasis must be on the wording some reports. Not really - this is a fact...

 

[GrauGeist]

Emphasis on "some reports". Yamato hit USS White Plains at 34k yards. Longest ranged ever hit on a moving ship at sea. Capt Sullivans report...

Yamato had 18.1" guns, not 16", which is the focus of the discussion - and Parsifal was well versed in Naval Warfare history, by the way.

 

[juhaerik]

I think NAGATO was present, too, and may have achieved the longest range 16in hit during this action.

These are difficult to verify due to the dynamic course of the battle. The longest confirmed range hit against a moving target remains an 11in hit from the first triple salvo discharged by SCHARNHORST vs GLORIOUS after 45 sec. Flighttime at ca. 28K yd range (the navigational range at firing time was >30kyd)

Indeed. Yamatos "hit" on White Plains seems to match timewise with both US and Japanese records. Also I have seen Lundgren mentioning that Kongo scored a hit (target name escapes me now, might be a destroyer) at about 30000 yards. This hit looks like not so well documented as Yamatos though...

I think NAGATO was present, too, and may have achieved the longest range 16in hit during this action.

These are difficult to verify due to the dynamic course of the battle. The longest confirmed range hit against a moving target remains an 11in hit from the first triple salvo discharged by SCHARNHORST vs GLORIOUS after 45 sec. Flighttime at ca. 28K yd range (the navigational range at firing time was >30kyd)

 

[juhaerik]

Guadalcanal was a very short range night battle, almost point blank for the 16" 45 cal weapons on Washington and South Dakota. Krishina, armed with 8 14" weapons was armored more against cruiser fire with about an 8" main belt. Washington achieved maybe as many as 20 hits in a five minute period, especially devastating were the near waterline hits. This destroyed much watertight integrity on the second deck and a counter flooding was used to keep the ship on an even keel, the ship now lower in the water suffered progressive and massive flooding above the deck armor. The free water plane created eventually resulted in large instability and capsize.

Washington used radar gun control very effectively and was not damaged in any way during the fight. South Dakota attracted both Krishima and cruiser fire have suffered many non serious maladies form extensive shell hits in the superstructure. None of the several strikes by Krishima on the main armor penetrated. Descriptions of damage on the upper works of Krishima by 16" shells indicated holes and torn metal 10 meters across. The holes below the waterline were quite small by comparison, but internal damage wrecked watertight integrity and caused the eventual loss of the ship.

Maximum range did not just depend on the caliber of the shells. This would be determined by available elevation, initial velocity and ballistic coefficient of the shell. For instance the Alaska's 12" shells with their high sectional density had a range about the same as the 16". For spotting shell fall radar was quite useful, and before that the use of spotter planes.

Yes, Washington made short work of Kirishima. Washington used radar for range and optics for line in her FC that night. Less have been said about her shooting before Kirishima had it. She and SD were shooting other Japanese forces at longer ranges resulting in nil of hits...