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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
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- #3
Shortround6
Major General
Follow the bombers???
check points, they had to pass over/near other cities/rivers/lakes a pre-determined times. If the cloud cover is too bad to see the ground the Dead reckoning gets increasingly iffy
check points, they had to pass over/near other cities/rivers/lakes a pre-determined times. If the cloud cover is too bad to see the ground the Dead reckoning gets increasingly iffy
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
What you're describing is call called "pilotage" and many times its used in conjunction with dead reckoning. During WW2, DR was basically all you had unless your aircraft was equipped with a DF unit. With a needle equipped DF unit you could possibly triangulate a position providing you had locations of the transmitting radio stations.
Celestial navigation was used in larger aircraft that were equipped with a sextant, and of course you had radar.
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- #6
No, it was pretty much just DR. DF radios cost weight, which is better spent in fuel or ammunition.
Dead reckoning can be pretty accurate, especially if you are using intermediate waypoints where you can recalculate groundspeed and drift.
For return to base, they used ground radar if the weather was bad.
Dead reckoning can be pretty accurate, especially if you are using intermediate waypoints where you can recalculate groundspeed and drift.
For return to base, they used ground radar if the weather was bad.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
True - back then most if not all radio communication was done on low and mid frequencies. All you need to know is the location of a transmitting AM radio station and DF equipment and you can navigate "to from." At the same time, LF radio nav aids are not that accurate and are easily affected by weather conditions.
Here's a little info on this...
ADF History
Last edited:
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I agree with all the above. No doubt Bill can verify, but, in general, escort fighters (or any other fighter formation, or pair, for example) would have an 'Outbound' course and 'Inbound' course given at briefing, with an emergency return course also being provided.
For example, the 'Inbound' course might be specific, with a way-point at, say, Gravelines, then a course for landfall at a specific point on the south or east coast of England, this point being the expected entry location, allowing AA and ADGB to be aware of 'friendly' aircraft. The 'emergency' course would be a heading to get the formation (or more likely an individual) directly back to the British Isles, on the straightest, most direct heading to allow landfall. From a point in Germany, this course would be something like 300 degrees magnetic, which, given enough fuel, should allow a pilot to at least find England.
Aerial navigation was still in it's infancy during WW2, and the requirements of military aviation at that time, saw the development of many aids, the basis of which are still in use today. However, those aids, at that time, were few and, as has been stated, could not be used for operational purposes, as they would also aid the enemy.
A look at the cockpit of virtually any single seat fighter of the period will show that the navigation aids consisted mainly of a compass, and gyro directional indicator - multi-seat, multi-engine aircraft dis, of course, have further instrumentation, but still relied chiefly on DR navigation, with minimal help from ground station equipment, or airborne equipment such as H2S.
For example, the 'Inbound' course might be specific, with a way-point at, say, Gravelines, then a course for landfall at a specific point on the south or east coast of England, this point being the expected entry location, allowing AA and ADGB to be aware of 'friendly' aircraft. The 'emergency' course would be a heading to get the formation (or more likely an individual) directly back to the British Isles, on the straightest, most direct heading to allow landfall. From a point in Germany, this course would be something like 300 degrees magnetic, which, given enough fuel, should allow a pilot to at least find England.
Aerial navigation was still in it's infancy during WW2, and the requirements of military aviation at that time, saw the development of many aids, the basis of which are still in use today. However, those aids, at that time, were few and, as has been stated, could not be used for operational purposes, as they would also aid the enemy.
A look at the cockpit of virtually any single seat fighter of the period will show that the navigation aids consisted mainly of a compass, and gyro directional indicator - multi-seat, multi-engine aircraft dis, of course, have further instrumentation, but still relied chiefly on DR navigation, with minimal help from ground station equipment, or airborne equipment such as H2S.
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- #14
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That sounds like a step backward from WWI methods.
Telefunken Kompass Sender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How the Zeppelin Raiders Are Guided by Radio Signals (1918)
Telefunken Kompass Sender - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How the Zeppelin Raiders Are Guided by Radio Signals (1918)
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
Not strictly true, but leave that for now.
The chances of P-51s being sent to Berlin, alone, is a bit unlikely, since they would either be acting as escorts for the bombers heading to Berlin, or given the job of intercepting them, on the way home, and, again, acting as escort.
In the first instance, they'd have a pretty good idea when their fuel level would dictate a return home, so they'd have been given a course home, preferably at ground level, with the freedom to attack targets of opportunity as they went.
For the interception, they'd have been given a course to steer, and the returning bomber force was usually spread over several miles, so not too difficult to find, and then it was a simple (??) case of staying with them.
If they got involved in a fight, they did have another option, and that was I.F.F. Head somewhere between north and west, and call for assistance, and they'd be told to switch the set on, which immediately showed the radar operators where they were, and they could be given a course for home.
One pilot did say that all they had to do was look for the biggest, blackest cloud, and they knew England would be under it, but I think he came from Florida, Texas or Arizona.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Providing the aircraft was equipped with IFF - yes. Even when vectored, you still have to plot a course, determine any wind correction angle and make calculations for airspeed and fuel consumption - DR. Vectors work fine providing you could be accurately identified and you can fly the course given, and "of course" have the remaining fuel to do so.
And, sometimes they just headed in the general direction of England and landed at the first airfield they came across. Its a pretty big island, and not easy to miss over the sort of distances we're talking about.
In the Pacific, they had a basic DF set at the base. The pilot would give a ten-count, and the controller would give a course to steer. Aparently, it was OK, if the weather was good, but in bad weather, when everyone wanted a heading to steer, it could turn to chaos.
In the Pacific, they had a basic DF set at the base. The pilot would give a ten-count, and the controller would give a course to steer. Aparently, it was OK, if the weather was good, but in bad weather, when everyone wanted a heading to steer, it could turn to chaos.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"DF STEER"
Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
In a book on Duxford "Duxford and the Big Wings 1940-45," by Martin Bowman, 2nd. Lt. Dick Hewitt states that, at the end of 1943, his P-47 was fitted with IFF. By then, the IFF Mk.III was in use, and (on RAF aircraft, at least,) the only visible sign was a bar aerial, usually under the wing or fuselage, about 12" long.
