Navy Corsair vs P-51B Climb Test, March 1944

pinehilljoe said:

Its very interesting to see the data. When I add all the F4F (not FM) sorties, I get 2,628. Considering the F4F was the only USN, USMC at least until March 1943, that's an average of 6 sorties a day over the first months of the War (Dec '41 to Feb '43). Ignoring F4Fs continued to be used. I would have thought the number would have higher, but admit, I don't a have sense of the values.

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Consider the number of Aircraft Carriers available between late December 1942, and when the Hellcats started appearing. At that time, Or at least for most of it, a U.S. Navy Carrier Air Group consisted of 1 Fighter Squadron, 2 Squadrons of Dive Bombers, and 1 Torpedo Bomber Squadron. Shore based squadrons were on Wake Island, Midway, and, later, Cuadalcanal. Not a lot of aircraft, and not a lot of combat engagement opportunities. If I get a chance, I'll pull the numbers over the weekend, and put them up.

pinehilljoe said:

Were there any engagements between Corsairs and Mustangs in the Banana War's in Central America?

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Honduras v. El Salvador 1969. Look up Flight Journal's "The Soccer War" online or the 1979 Naval Institute Press volume by Whosis!

DDonSS3 said:

Brings me back to the thought that if the USAF had held on to the P-47 instead of the P-51D we'd have lost a lot fewer fighter-bomber pilots in Korea than we did.

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Ah, the old "Delicate Mustang" myth:

As for Korea, from a quick memory check (flying very similar mission profiles in the same environment):

F-51 Losses = 341 combat related and 133 non-combat related for a total of 474 overall of which 10+/- lost A2A

F4U losses = 325 combat related (Navy & Marines combined) and 170 non-combat related for a total of 495 overall of which 9-10+/- lost A2A

Sorry, I'll have to dig out the source for that, I had it posted in another thread but I do know those numbers came right out of original source documents.

Peter Gunn said:

Ah, the old "Delicate Mustang" myth:

As for Korea, from a quick memory check (flying very similar mission profiles in the same environment):

F-51 Losses = 341 combat related and 133 non-combat related for a total of 474 overall of which 10+/- lost A2A

F4U losses = 325 combat related (Navy & Marines combined) and 170 non-combat related for a total of 495 overall of which 9-10+/- lost A2A

Sorry, I'll have to dig out the source for that, I had it posted in another thread but I do know those numbers came right out of original source documents.

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I think the myth is that it is possible to make a competitive combat fighter that can withstand small to medium AAA fire like a Sherman tank.

Peter Gunn said:

Ah, the old "Delicate Mustang" myth:

As for Korea, from a quick memory check (flying very similar mission profiles in the same environment):

F-51 Losses = 341 combat related and 133 non-combat related for a total of 474 overall of which 10+/- lost A2A

F4U losses = 325 combat related (Navy & Marines combined) and 170 non-combat related for a total of 495 overall of which 9-10+/- lost A2A

Sorry, I'll have to dig out the source for that, I had it posted in another thread but I do know those numbers came right out of original source documents.

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Verrrry interesting...thank you.
I'll just add:
The figures need to be compared in loss rates per sortie, and while the sortie counts should be available, I've not seen them yet.

Barrett said:

Verrrry interesting...thank you.
I'll just add:
The figures need to be compared in loss rates per sortie, and while the sortie counts should be available, I've not seen them yet.

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I've got them somewhere Barrett. The 51 loss rate was about 1/2% higher per sortie. One factor of note is that the average range of the F-51D strikes were longer, particularly in the drive to Pusan by NKA and the 51s were based in Japan.

I've often wondered how much of a factor that was in ETO vs P-47 losses.

If you take 1 September 1944 as the date the continental airfields became available to take damaged allied heavy bombers then the following figures apply to the 8th Air Force. In the period to 31 August 1944 some 2.7% of B-17s listed as lost to fighters made it back to allied territory, versus 6.4% of those listed as lost to flak. For the period 1 September 1944 to the end of the war the figures become 5.8% and 16.6%.

The 9th Air Force P-47 and P-51 did not have the same risk profiles,

P-38 from 32,928 credit sorties, loss rate 1.2%, average sortie dropped 668 pounds of bombs and made 0.008 claims for enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, average sortie length 2.51 hours. Monthly loss rates ranged from 0.4% in March 1945 to 1.9% in August 1944.

P-47 from 197,191 credit sorties, loss rate 0.74%, average sortie dropped 571 pounds of bombs and made 0.006 claims for enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, average sortie length 2.41 hours. Monthly loss rates ranged from 0.2% in March 1944 to 1.2% in December 1944

P-51 from 24,505 credit sorties, loss rate 1.1%, average sortie dropped 128 pounds of bombs and made 0.03 claims for enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, average sortie length 2.96 hours. Monthly loss rates ranged from 3.4% in March 1944 to 0.4% in March 1945.

F-5 from 7,447 credit sorties, loss rate 0.38%, average sortie length 1.79 hours. Monthly loss rates ranged from 0 in several months to 1.37% in May 1944.

F-6 from 24,412 credit sorties, loss rate 0.41%, average sortie made 0.0055 claims for enemy aircraft destroyed in the air, average sortie length 1.83 hours. Monthly loss rates ranged from 0 to end April 1944 to 0.7% in June 1944.

8th Air Force, hours are average sortie length for all fighter credit sorties, loss is percentage of credit sorties, P-38,47,51 are absolute losses including those reported to have come down in friendly territory but were unlocated 30 days later, Escort and Other are sorties in air less spares and abandoned operations (NOT credit sorties).


Probably a general trend to higher losses on longer sorties but operations changed over time, more strafing, less Luftwaffe fighter opposition, and non escort sorties make up around 25% of total effort. Better data needed.

P-38 75.29% of losses MIA, 24.14% Category E, 0.57% unlocated,
P-47 70.82% of losses MIA, 23.29% Category E, 5.89% unlocated,
P-51 65.92% of losses MIA, 27.03% Category E, 7.05% unlocated,

If you treat all the unlocated losses as MIA P-47 81.51% MIA, 18.49% Category E, P-51 78.51% MIA, 21.49% Category E

pbehn said:

I think the myth is that it is possible to make a competitive combat fighter that can withstand small to medium AAA fire like a Sherman tank.

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if you grew up watching Ba Ba Black Sheep in the 70's, you just like the Corsair!

I'd just like to take a moment and acknowledge how much effort and care G Geoffrey Sinclair puts into his posts. Man not only a lot of good data but you format it so it's nice and easy to read, top notch stuff.

Thanks for your hard work.