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I'm curious why so many people are getting hung up on WVR turn and burn dogfighting, how exactly are the opposition supposed to locate the F35's to engage them in this brawl in the first place?
If the F35 knows where you are and you don't know where it is, your going to be very busy dodging missiles!
And as much as im a supporter of the F-35, that should have been thought out by each partner nation. The F-35 isn't for eveyone for both cost and capability.
But there are plenty of highly-capable SAM systems that can take out all our attack airframes quite readily. With Putin continuing his sabre-rattling and tweaking NATO's nose, how long will it be before we see yet more capable SAM systems being sold to countries that are hostile to the West? At that point, it's too late to do something with our existing fleet. We need a modern, low-observable fast jet platform capable of precision attack...and that would be the F-35.
This same sort of problem develops with nearly any sort of engineering. I can think of some horribly organized civil engineering and development plans that either ended up getting re-evaluated and canceled outright or (in the case of the new High School that finally opened around 10 years ago) finally put back on track after months or years of varying delays and political/bureaucratic messes. In some cases it's changing requirements in other cases it's improper planning/data collected and provided by the customer (government/military in these cases) or upper management in the case of internal R&D projects (... or management influenced by 'market research' and marketing divisions ... ). Middle management of some sort or another that lacks the skills to properly plan and deliver the requirements in the first place and also usually lacks the understanding of engineering or economics to minimize wasteful spending and delays forced my belated amendments to requirements. (or, of course, cases where they DO understand but just don't CARE about doing their job well, and only care about looking good playing political/bureaucratic games)The real issue isn't the ability to DO it ... the issue is constantly-shifting goals and specifications. I'd describe it, but people like FlyboyJ and Drgondog have lived it like I have and KNOW the problems caused by constantly shooting at a moving target. There are many others in here who have lived it and know, too.
And waste a ton of time and money (and other resources) bickering about it rather than just settling for some compromise to expedite things. But then you need at least one side to actually be willing to compromise and unless you have BOTH that tends to mean the more sensible one eating the entire cost just to avoid delays and waste. Then again, if both sides were being sensible and rational about the entire project, they likely wouldn't be running into those sorts of delays and conflicts nearly as often either.The government wastes a LOT of time and money trying to get contractors to pay for things that have to be redone at government request due to government-specified changes. They wind up paying anyway, but they drag you through the mud to get paid.
That all sounds very familiar, and delays tend to be compounded ... everything's great when it goes to plan, but with lack of margins for error and contingencies for mistakes/changes you end up with cost overruns ... investors/buyers being unwilling to pay more or other bottlenecks for procuring added resources to keep up pace and end up in a vicious cycle of overlapping costs. Developers that under-bid costs to win a contract would make that problem worse too. (speaking in general, not saying there's any relevance to the F-35's case)While I was at one company, we had local machine shops refusing to deliver fixtures until they were paid for because the money was slow in coming. Naturally, that impacted schedules, which tended to draw penalties on top of schedule slips ... all due to inefficiency in accounts payable. Our company refused to finance government projects and wait for the payment to come in the mail, so it was hurry up to get it done on time and then wait around to get paid before continuing with the supposed "continuous-effort" project.
As a taxpayer it was outrageous. As an engineer it was business as usual on some projects that shall remain nameless.
You know, that really is the bigger issue even beyond the mistakes in planning that leads to improper requirements in the first place, especially since you COULD end up with a very good, solid plan and resulting specification that made perfect sense for the overall requirements but added changes being thrown in for stupid reasons after the fact due to shifting politics or management.The issue is the CUSTOMER is inducing the changes!!!!
Unfortunately the F-22 was never offered for foreign sales.
Plus, in Australia there was no proper evaluation of the F-35's capabilities against our needs.
When I lived in Phoenix, AZ for 23 years, we had a spate of accidents from the mid 80s to mid 90s when we were seeing quite a few F-16 crashes. Luke AFB was the F-16 training site and they had (and probably HAVE) a LOT of F-16s.
We took to calling the F-16 the "Lawn Dart" because they were hitting the ground so often. It was more than 60% engine failures, probably from maintenance issues mostly, but the USAF won't TELL you that.
I don't recall any NATO bases in the Ukraine or the Crimea...Which came first, the Russians "tweaking NATO's nose" or NATO expansion into Russia's neighbours?
Pretty sure Russia already sells weapons to those "hostile to the West".
Which came first, the Russians "tweaking NATO's nose" or NATO expansion into Russia's neighbours?
Do you have a quantitive number of crashes??? I could tell you that the F-16 has a high accident rate and has had engine issues, but with that said, where does it connect to "maintenace"????Hey Joe,
They had a LOT of F-16 crashes, no BS. The local media ... notoriously accurate in aviation reporting as always(!), usually said "crash after engine failure." There was no reporting to the general public from the Air Force, but we sprouted bumper crop of F-16s about then.
See below...So ... if the engines were at fault, it's either the engine design that is still flying today in the airframe, the fuel quality or running out of it, the maintenance, the electronics failing, or the pilots making the big mistake. There are few if any other possibilities.
Again, hard numbers Greg!I couldn't give less of a darn which one it was since I'm not in charge of F-16 safety and not I'm flying them either; they still crashed at a pretty good rate in the late 80s early 90s in Phoenix.
and again, if there were maintainers to blame that would have came out in the accident reports which are public record.Unless the reports were bogus ... but they usually had chopper film of a smoking something in a hole surrounded by wreckage. I'm not suggesting ... I'm telling you that the maintainers were blamed locally as I was there and flying at the time and paying a lot of attention. But no local pilots ever heard a word from the USAF one way or the other. My friend in the Air Guard never talked about it and I didn't ask.
Call BS if you will; SOMETHING dropped the F-16s out of the sky over a 7 - 10 year period around Phoenix and then seemed to "go away." I hope it STAYS away. Coniodentally, they had a LOT of F-15's tgehre, too, and they didn't seem to suffer from the same reported engine-related woes despite being a similar engine and I hope they never do.
I don't recall any NATO bases in the Ukraine or the Crimea...
Well why spout off some BS without backing up what you say?!?!? I work with this stuff daily and SEE some of these reports. I gave you the data, if you want to go in and keep listening to the bubbleheaded bleach blonde on the boob tube, go right ahead, but be advised that I will call you on the BS...Joe,
I'm not an Air Force reporter. I don't HAVE hard numbers and will NOT waste time and effort to get them to satisfy someone's curiosity. If you are curious, go check it out. There were a LOT of F-16 crashes there for awhile. I don't care what summary reports say ... I lived there and heard about them on the local news and it ain't no BS. I never paid any attention to F-16 events around the world or the nation, but local crashes made the news.
I have little curiosity about 30-year old crashes in any case unless it's someone like Amelia Earhart or someone newsworthy for some reason. I'm getting tired of defending facts and things veterans say about flying in WWII ... I'm NOT the one saying them (just reporting it) in the case of veterans flying experiences and the crashes were reported on the Phoenix news.
If you or anyone else doesn't think they crashed there, that's fine. It won't affect aviation safety today and I have NO agenda concerning the crashes, hard landings that resulted in scrapped planes, or whatever it was. I mentioned the crashes as a response and want no more to do with them as I wasn't on the accident investigation board and didn't even want to be.
If you guys don't want to hear about aviation events, I won't post about them. End of story and my interest in it. Damned sorry I even mentioned it.
I only mentioned the F 16 accident rate because of the previous quoted post and the fact that it has a single engine.
I was looking at this site about accidents.
F-16 Mishaps Accident Reports
I was looking at accidents by year which covers all forces you can look up USA only losses separately.
There was CERTAINLY an increase in UK of AC lost to accidents 26 years ago in the run up to desert storm not only RAF but also a few USA aircraft based in UK. I believe low level training restrictions were lifted and the number of training OPs increased by a huge percentage.
Shouldn't that be "But here's our F-35, eh?"?
Sorry...couldn't resist. I'll get my coat.
When I lived in Phoenix, AZ for 23 years, we had a spate of accidents from the mid 80s to mid 90s when we were seeing quite a few F-16 crashes. Luke AFB was the F-16 training site and they had (and probably HAVE) a LOT of F-16s.
We took to calling the F-16 the "Lawn Dart" because they were hitting the ground so often. It was more than 60% engine failures, probably from maintenance issues mostly, but the USAF won't TELL you that.
Awwh Shucks. No worries eh? or should I say Huh?
back at ya buddy.