no camouflage on USAAF planes

[stona]

I bet those pink PR Spitfires were flown by closet homosexuals produced by the English public school system. Or closet communists. Or is that the same thing?

Same thing. I suspect they complained that they were nowhere near pink enough.
The actual colour was very nearly white,just the faintest tinge of pink. There was a reproduction paint job doing the rounds that was veeery pink. It might not be accurate but then if I had a Spitfire I'd paint it any colour I pleased.

Don't forget than when facism is the enemy,as in the 1930s,people with left wing tendencies do not seem so undesireable to a security service......Blunt,Burgess,Maclean,Philby are of course the gang of four,Cairncross may have been number five.Incidentally only Blunt and Burgess were homosexuals. Maclean was a drinker who managed to get over promoted, Philby the really clever one.

Later add Driberg (an Oxford man),George Blake (who had an exemplary anti nazi background,working with SOE and in the Dutch resistance) and a handful of others,not all public school men.

Many of these men were intellectual idealists.

As English public schools (which are of course private!) existed to produce soldiers and administrators for the Empire it is hardly surprising that they also produced some of our most famous spies. People working for the various security services are,at the end of the day,civil servants.

Cheers
Steve

 

[rank amateur]

That was quite important considering the resources needed to manufacture the paint in the first place. With naval AC requiring to be painted, it was a macro economic decision to let then navy get the paint they needed and the AAF do without as it was mostly unneeded.

So there are plenty of arguments to go with this decision. I never had any doubt about that.
But I still like to know who made it and when. Can't realy imagine the US lacking the resources to produce the paint.

 

[stona]

I think aircraft recognition was always an important factor whether with camouflaged aircraft or not.
All air forces devised various special markings to enable their pilots to distinguish friend from foe. Whether the aircraft was camouflaged or not was not I think a major factor.

Of course the US could produce the paint for any aircraft it deemed to require painting. Eliminating the camouflage coat speeded up the production process,something everyone was keen to do. The marginal (debateable in some cases) increase in performance was a bonus.

Cheers

Steve

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... Don't forget than when facism is the enemy,as in the 1930s,people with left wing tendencies do not seem so undesireable to a security service...."

I grant you that, Steve ..... but ... the reverse is equally true .... when godless Communism is the enemy, as it was after 1917, people with right wing proclivities do not seem so undesirable.

MM

 

[Milosh]

I bet those pink PR Spitfires were flown by closet homosexuals produced by the English public school system. Or closet communists. Or is that the same thing?

The RN had ships painted Mountbatten Pink and Army had vehicles painted Mountbatten Pink.

 

[stona]

I bet those pink PR Spitfires were flown by closet homosexuals produced by the English public school system.

It's also worth mentioning that even in 1940 about one in three pilots was not commissioned and had not come through the Auxiliary Air Force (which was almost a private flying club for the well off,with uniforms) or the University Air Squadrons.
These Sergeant pilots often came from much more modest backgrounds which included neither public school nor university.

A brave man is a brave man whatever his background. The British are capable of both snobbery and staggering inverse snobbery.It is one of the least appealing aspects of our national character.
An ex-member of a very famous and seminal British punk band,who didn't exactly come from the ghetto himself,once told me that a certain other band lacked credibility "because they were posh and from Brighton".......truly incredible.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Airframes]

A Directive dated 13th February, 1944, stated that fighters and strategic bombers in the 8th AF, would no longer use camouflage. The aircraft were to be left in bare metal, apart from Olive Drab anti-glare panels in front of cockpits, and on engine nacelles immediately within the pilot's vision, on multi-engine types.
I would presume this Directive was issued by the War Department at the Pentagon, via the relevant production and service authorities.

 

[rank amateur]

That is one directive I'd like to read. Quite interesting the notorious big week started only a week later.
I wonder if there is a connection between the two?

 

[Airframes]

I doubt it. Aircraft in bare metal finish had already reached some units, albeit in small numbers, before the actual Directive was issued making it 'official'.
There are recorded incidents of crews, in the 'early days', assigned bare metal B-17s, for example, being somewhat nervous or disheartened having to fly them, as the thought was that they might be taken for something 'special', and singled out by Luftwaffe fighters.
At that stage of WW2, I don't see that the lack of camouflage paint made much difference, in terms of being detected, as air superiority was almost virtual, and, as has been stated, the mass of twenty miles long contrails was a huge sign saying 'Here we are' !
It's interesting to note though, that by the early 1950s, trials undertaken by Britain concluded that the undersides of high-flying jet fighters benefited from a 'silver' finish, using an aluminium paint finish know as High Speed Silver, as this blended better with the background sky at high altitudes, and offered less 'glint', compared to various shades of light blues or greys. This, of course, is when looking up at the aircraft, and can, to an extent, be simulated today, when trying to spot a 'bare metal' airliner (eg American Airlines) at altitude, even if a contrail marks its progress, when the aircraft itself is difficult to see with the naked eye, compared to painted aircraft.

 

[gjs238]

A Directive dated 13th February, 1944, stated that fighters and strategic bombers in the 8th AF, would no longer use camouflage. The aircraft were to be left in bare metal, apart from Olive Drab anti-glare panels in front of cockpits, and on engine nacelles immediately within the pilot's vision, on multi-engine types.
I would presume this Directive was issued by the War Department at the Pentagon, via the relevant production and service authorities.

What about 9th AF?

 

[Airframes]

The 9th Air force were Tactical, although their aircraft too eventually appeared in NMF, most likely as their aircraft came from the same factories, to the same Base Air Depots in the UK.
The 15th Air Force also moved to NMF, as did forces in other theatres, so it's certain that the omission of camouflage paint became 'standard practice'

 

[barney]

Once the invasion stripes were broomed on I can't imagine how the rest of the aircraft looked, painted or left bare, making much difference.

 

[drgondog]

Well I don't think we ever got anything approaching another "flying circus" on any side.
Both the Luftwaffe and USAAF seem to have allowed more leeway in what could and couldn't be applied to aircraft than the RAF. Interesting stuff like US red tails,blue noses and fancy nose art,as well as the Luftwaffe's checked or tulip noses,yellow tails and plethora of personal emblems simply weren't allowed by the spoil sports at the Air Ministry.
There's a really sad directive from the AM laying down exactly where and how big the lettering on a presentation aircraft might be. It gives the impression that really the Ministry would prefer the acknowledgement not to be there at all.
Cheers
Steve

Steve - remember that in the case of the 8th and 9th and 12th and 15th AF, the 'color scheme' variances were about providing distinguishing marks to different Groups - which had very specific purposes.

The Key changes in 1944 led to easy identification via Tail marks on B-17 (91st BG Triangle A or 100th BG Square D) and B-24 (Black Rudder/center white horizontal stripe for 445th BG) rudders which Bomb Group was where in the bomber stream to assist making R/V between assigned escort fighters and their bombers. Ditto in reverse "White (355th)and Red nose (4th) Mustangs were seen in fight with 190s west of IP"..

Having said this, the 8th AF had the most variations and latitude on 'policy'.

 

[Michael_Kovalchuk]

During 1944 American Army Airforce in Europe gradually did away with the camouflage paint. Some sources claim that this was because of the diminished oposition and the fact that the aircraft performed better without. I am curious to know from which point (date) this happened and who initiated it. It certainly gave the US airplanes a sense of glamour and it contributed to the confidence of the allied armies. But still, was this planned or just dumb luck. I have been googling on tis subject and have not come up with much.

I hope some of the forum members can provide me with usefull info.

Chrzzzz

I just joined based on this question alone.

Link below to a YouTube Video with time-stamp providing one answer to this question.
no camouflage on USAAF planes

Another source states ( https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-u-s-army-air-forces-strips-its-planes-of-paint/ )
American AAF and Navy camouflage paint schemes tended to be two, flat, monotones colors; more a reflection of the priority placed on high volume aircraft production. (based on the Army-Navy Aircraft, or ANA, color standard adopted in June 1943 that combined two previous standards)

AAF aircraft paint schemes were the responsibility of Materiel Command, based at Wright Field (now Wright-Patterson Airforce Base). It raised the notion of not painting AAF aircraft in November 1942 based on a study by the RAF that noted speed gains of six to eight miles an hour on an airplane with polished surfaces. In circulating its query, Materiel Command asked if the advantages of camouflage paint would be "more than offset by the last bit of 'oomph' in speed and climb from total elimination." Separately, Proving Ground Command conducted its own flight experiments that same month on the subject, only with painted planes having polished surfaces, and noted speed increases of eight miles per hour. One P-51 used in the tests clocked an astonishing 21 mph increase. Examination of that fighter determined a variety of contributing factors to its speed increase, rendering its results void.

Early in 1943 theater commander input was sought....Strategic commands in active theaters approved paint removal for heavy bombers and fighters if the tests proved out. Active combat tactical commands tended to recommend smoother surfaces or no change at all.

No record exists about how much a gallon of paint used on the aircraft weighed. Contemporary reports stated that with the elimination of the paint, fighters would be "fifteen to twenty pounds lighter" and heavy bombers would "lose seventy to eighty pounds." One recent study on the subject noted that the paint during this period was undoubtedly lead-based and "probably copper fortified." A gallon of such paint could weigh as much as 30 pounds, though for aircraft it was more likely to be in the 10-pound range. A B-17 has a surface area of 4,200 square feet and took about 35 gallons of paint to coat. If the paint weighed 10 pounds a gallon wet, after accounting for evaporation the weight would be roughly 300 pounds. Given that figure, eliminating the paint would indeed be a major weight reduction.

Additional Notes:
Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress Specifications
Weights:
Empty: 33,279 lb (15,095 kg)
Full: 35,728 lb (16,205 kg)

Based on just these two sources the decision was made first and foremost to save time and to save money.

One to grow on XD
Two Aliens are sitting down in the break-room and talking about work before they punch in the clock; there names are Bob and Tom. Bob and Tom both have the same job - they are a bit like Letter Carriers, AKA mailmen, in that they have their own zone they work in (zip-code) and they each have their own route; each has their own slice of the galaxy they are responsible for investigating into whether or not there exists any signs of intelligent life on an alien planet. They go from solar system to solar system and observe and report.

Well, nothing exciting for Bob and Tom, just the usual small-talk, but really big-stuff for us Earthlings. What is just a casual conversation in the morning at the vending-machine or microwave to us, is what this conversation is to the friendly Aliens Robert and Thomson.

Bob: Where do they have you today?
Tom: Zone 7, Route 65 (The Milkyway Galaxy).
Bob: How many alien life-forms have you found yet?
Tom: I only got there yesterday after lunch. Dumb@$$ supervisor Dalton B. Rutherford called me on my lunch break. It was 45 light-years away. By the time I got there, I practically had to turn around. They waste so much fuel here. And then they don't pay us what we deserve!
Bob: You know what I say, if you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all.
Tom: (Earth); a single planet with alien-life.
Bob: Did the planet contain any signs of emerging intelligent life?
Tom: No. They had all of their nuclear weapons pointed at themselves.

 

[drgondog]

Somewhere in my dusty files is a TTY Memorandum from the West Coast Material Command to NAA, Douglas, Boeing, etc for the following:

Effective 1 January, all US Army Air Force aircraft must be delivered in NMF with exception of anti glare panels. IIRC, the order was transmitted in late November to give the contractors enough time to insert the new requirement into the production process plans.

NAA issued the internal memo on or about December 25, 1943 and the change was implemented just after the P-51B-10-NA block started. The first of the -10's emerged, and were accepted by AAF, with standard OD/Grey camo. IIRC the first NMF P-51B-10's with NMF was around 43-7158 accepted in first week of 1944.

The reasons stated included a.) reducing labor and time for not only the paint shop but also the quality inspection and fixes., b.) reducing weight and drag, and c.) cost of paint and primer. The Mustang was only partially affected as the wings were still puttied, sanded, primed and overs prayed with aluminum paint.

I have been told by multiple sources that theatre commanders could exercise counter orders to deliver 'as before' for tactical reasons. Douglas A-20s are an example of continued OD/Grey deliveries via Project Number.

 

[Michael_Kovalchuk]

Somewhere in my dusty files is a TTY Memorandum from the West Coast Material Command to NAA, Douglas, Boeing, etc for the following:

Effective 1 January, all US Army Air Force aircraft must be delivered in NMF with exception of anti glare panels. IIRC, the order was transmitted in late November to give the contractors enough time to insert the new requirement into the production process plans.

NAA issued the internal memo on or about December 25, 1943 and the change was implemented just after the P-51B-10-NA block started. The first of the -10's emerged, and were accepted by AAF, with standard OD/Grey camo. IIRC the first NMF P-51B-10's with NMF was around 43-7158 accepted in first week of 1944.

The reasons stated included a.) reducing labor and time for not only the paint shop but also the quality inspection and fixes., b.) reducing weight and drag, and c.) cost of paint and primer. The Mustang was only partially affected as the wings were still puttied, sanded, primed and overs prayed with aluminum paint.

I have been told by multiple sources that theatre commanders could exercise counter orders to deliver 'as before' for tactical reasons. Douglas A-20s are an example of continued OD/Grey deliveries via Project Number.

Excellent.
Found a cool link that allows people to go into a virtual reality to view all the different interior positions of B-17. People can also pay a fee and fly as a passenger inside of it.

Climb Inside the Belly of these WWII-Era Bombers - Matterport

B-29 Superbomber
Boeing B-29 Superfortress - Matterport
Discovered this site matterport.com
Right up there with google earth and google sky.