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In yet another incident, two MiG-25s approached a pair of F-15s, fired missiles (which were evaded by the F-15s), and then outran the American fighters. Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of ten air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, though none reached them. [Atkinson, pp. 230-231.] According to the same sources, at least one F-111 was also forced to abort its mission by a MiG-25 on the first 24 hours of hostilities, during an air raid over Tikrit. [ Atkinson, p. 75.]
Points taken.I'm not trying to blow a horn for the Foxbat, simply pointing out that in the examples I had in mind where Foxbats did very well in combat, it wouldn't have made any difference if you were in a Phantom or an Eagle assuming a common weapons package. The advantages a 4th gen has over a 3rd gen didn't come into play on at least those two occasions (there is another inconclusive combat with Eagles but that was again defensive fire/flee on the part of the Foxbats, two missiles fired by the Eagles which went ballistic).
...and F-15s killed two in Gulf War. Sparrow shots as I recall.
What's your source on that? The MiG-25 has an absolute G loading of 4.4 Gs and has a normal G loading of 2.2Gs at all speeds. Belenko confirmed this during his defection...Actually the supersonic turn of the Foxbat is supposedly quite good (more than 4g) where a Phantom under similar conditions can sustain only 2.5g, mind you a Hornet can sustain the same turn at 7g. At high mach not much can sustain a turn like a Foxbat, up around 2.5 mach most get restricted to 3g and the Foxbat maintains 4.5g design limitation (I've been told all these figures can be exceeded in emergencies, just these are the design limitations by condition).
What's your source on that? The MiG-25 has an absolute G loading of 4.4 Gs and has a normal G loading of 2.2Gs at all speeds. Belenko confirmed this during his defection...
Mikoyan OKB release data (cited) published by Janes. Given 4.5g supersonic, higher subsonic (but undisclosed). By comparison the design limits on the Flogger-G are 8.5g subsonic and 7.5g transonic (supersonic undisclosed but likely in the typical 2-3g realm).
Forget the flogger, we're talking MiG-25...
Based on the evaluation of the USAF of the MiG-25 in 1976 and info from Belenko it was apparent that the MiG-25 was not capable of anything over 4.5 Gs (and I'm being generous accepting Jane's info). Even at lower speeds I don't the the MiG-25 pulling any sustained Gs over 4 without bending the aircraft.
erm...I realise I'm being pretty anecdotal a lot here. Please understand I speak more in the spirit of expressive communication than authority, just shootin the breeze.
It's slightly unfair to compare the F-4 to the F-14 as some of the lessons learned from the Phantom went into the Tomcat (and the Eagle and Hornet too).
The F-4 was, as I understand, originally designed to down bombers from long range with missiles. Hence, it didn't need particularly good dogfight capability - and so confident were they that missiles would settle the issue BVR or at least beyond gun range, the Navy didn't even put a gun on it.
Vietnam was a wakeup call that dogfighting was still alive and well and that Phantoms were losing out to the much smaller and more agile MiGs. The lesson was not lost on either the USN or USAF, who have put a gun into every fighter they have used since. They have also made sure that all of thier fighters have the capability to dogfight.
Assuming that the F 14/15/18 had never been built, the Phantom would have continued to lose out to more agile Warsaw Pact types as a fighter - hence the construction of the F-14 and -15. And while it's huge payload would have kept it in business as a mud-mover for a while longer, I think the drive toward single-seat multi-role types like the F-16, Rafale, Eurofighter etc. would have spelt the end for the Phantom regardless of it's performance. Air forces always want the best bang for the least buck, and the F-4 could not stay competitive on both fronts much past the late 80s, IMHO.
You are correct when you say that the Sparrow was not effective as a dogfighting missile and had a number of problems which is why the UK designed the Skyflash. However I think that you are exagerating the problems of the Sidewinder. Early models were very poor against agile targets but from the AIM 9L which entered service in 1978 onwards these problems were overcome with a kill ratio in the Falklands of 70-80% and in the Bekaa valey something like 90% of the kills were using the AIM 9L. So in this discussion you need to pick the timeframe. The Shafir was designed to replace the Sidewinder but was a failure.I don't think results have proven the F-15 was needed at all. It's only combat prior to the US entering the Gulf was in Israeli hands where its glaring fault, that its design technology was ahead of the weapons technology to support it was prevalent. The Israelis wound up using them just like the US used the F-4 in Vietnam because of the shocking poor performance of 70's gen sparrows and sidewinders (the reason the Israelis developed the Shafir which is a generation ahead of the Sidewinder like the Archer or that South African missile). Actual combat reports in encounters with MiGs involved firing off all your missiles at once trying to hit one target and frequently missing, then getting a gun kill on a Fishbed through sustained manoeuvres, in these cases the performance of an F-4E would be just about the same, the main factors here being excess thrust and boosted controls.
The Sidewinder of the period had only just overcome the tactic of using g-manoeuvres to break its lock, but it still liked clouds and random heat sources. Sparrows were still just about useless, scoring maybe 1 in 3 shots fired and half the time just plain going ballistic after launch.
Of course the IAF liked the performance of the F15 who wouldn't but your comment on crappy weapons in 1978 is wrong as per my previous observation. Before 1978 I would agree with you but afterwards I wouldn't. As for ignoring everything going on inside the cockpit in combat range that is more or less correct but goes for any pilot in close proximity to other aircraft. Hence one of the major improvements in the F15 visibility. This in the F4 wasn't great in fact it could be pretty poor whereas the F15 could almost be decribed as perfect. Given similar training then a Mig 21 MF would give an F4 a very hard time in a dogfight and if you don't have the numbers its a bad idea. NATO F5 pilots often scored over the F4 in a close in combat situation. An F15 over a Mig 21 holds all the aces.The Israelis did like the Eagle because of its terrific all round performance, they were used to dogfighters like the Mirage and it still had the weapons and intercept qualities of a Phantom with a newer tech avionics fit and especially its powerful radar. But those crappy era weapons ca.1978 still meant basically you saw the enemy well far away but still had to close to the same type of combat you'd be in using a Phantom or a Mirage anyway, because the weapons tech couldn't keep up with the plane tech. The Israelis jokingly referred to it as "the flying SAM site" because you had this powerful radar, waited for the enemy to finally close to combat range, then fired a whole lot of missiles, nevertheless the name isn't all that affectionate since the Israelis respect gun kills and dogfighting over any other aerial combat (mostly because guns don't fail on you). Upon closing to combat range Israeli pilots say they routinely ignore everything going on inside the cockpit with the avionics anyway, which is understandable considering the poor reliability of pre-80's-digital era.
I think that the first F16 with Sparrow capability was the Block 15 which came out about the same time as the F16 C/DThe F-16A was placed in service in 1980 and if I'm reading my Janes right in 1981 (block 5) it had Sparrow capability and a couple of other improvements (databuses and the like). The AN/APG-66 was pretty good with digital multimode, pulse-doppler and angle track, it was well ahead of anything in the Soviet arsenal before the Foxhound.
The simple fact is that thay you couldn't do this in an F4. It didn't turn well, it was easily spotted, had average visibility and was probably equal to the opposition. That isn't good when they outnumber you because you will run out of planes first.The Eagle is supreme in 1970's air superiority, but the thing is it stands alone here. You could've done exactly the same thing with Phantoms with complete parity toward any potential aggressors.
I would say basically the F-4 was replaced by the F-15 and F-16 for Air Force and F-18 for the Navy. F-14 was first a fleet defense fighter, and was not designed IMO as a F-4 replacement.