Over banking and crashing, what was the intended maneuver?

[Admiral Beez]

I'm no pilot. When I watch vids where large four-engined military aircraft are banked well over in a low speed turn, and they seemingly stall and crash into the ground, I'm left wondering what was the intended maneuver? And how do experienced military pilots get themselves into these situations? Does the aircraft go from a controlled banking turn to fatal nosedive without warning?


View: https://youtu.be/ovwEhbATsDQ?feature=shared&t=48


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUEhNKBi4DY

 

[mjfur]

Basically the pilots were showing off, making a tight turn which bled off speed, the wing stalls, the nose tucks and there's no altitude for recovery.

 

[GrauGeist]

That C-17 crash was in Alaska back in 2010.
They were practicing the demonstration routine for an Airshow and during a turn, the aircraft warned the pilot of an impending stall and instead of taking measures to correct the ship out of the condition, he continued in the turn which induced a full (and fatal) stall.

 

[Engineman]

Yes, mjfur is correct that both these accidents basically finished with stalled, high bank, pulling G departures from controlled flight. However, stalls don't just happen at low speed, the G loading multiplies the stall speed. For instance, when you are in your airliner flying the approach, it might well slow down to 1.3 times the stall speed. That is quite safe if flown within the safe angle of bank and G loading. But if the pilot just rolled on 70 or 80 degrees of bank and pulled to stay level, they could reach the stall speed. Both these events on the vids were displays and they were pushing all the limits. I think that both were found to have broken the limits, even for the choreographed displays. Unfortunately, large aircraft display flying has had many terrible accidents, or incidents. IMO large aircraft are particularly unforgiving if mishandled at low altitude. Mind you, smaller aircraft also bite hard if mishandled, everything small from the flying Flea to the F-22 has crashed after mishandling!

Eng

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The B-52 crash was definitely a matter of a hot-dogging pilot violating orders to limit the envelope of the flight. The pilot had a history of risky flying in the -52, and a contributing factor was poor USAF leadership that overlooked his dangerous disregard of safety.

Crash of a Boeing B-52H Stratofortress at Fairchild AFB: 4 killed | Bureau of Aircraft Accidents Archives

www.baaa-acro.com

 

[Admiral Beez]

I remember when this Nimrod low speed banked, stalled and crashed here in Toronto and thinking at the time, surely this is wholly predictable?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scpTAMOxH2I

 

[pbehn]

I read an article on air crashes where pilots became disorientated flying in cloud. They started to distrust instruments and trust their senses, resulting in progressing downwards in a 1G spiral. I cant imagine there is a manual or instructions for such manoeuvers so its a fly by the seat of your pants with no regard to airspeed and bank angle which feels OK until suddenly it doesnt. Inviting people to put on an "impressive display" doesnt help at all.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Inviting people to put on an "impressive display" doesnt help at all.

Indeed. Nearly every weekend here in Toronto the Avro Lancaster from the museum in Hamilton Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum - Canadian Aviation History - Wartime Vintage Aircraft flies over my house and around the CN Tower on revenue flights. I don't need to see it partaking in aerobatics, it's just great to hear those four Packard Merlins approaching and seeing the Lanc fly by. I've for the most part stopped going to air shows as I'm reluctant for entertainment's sake to be a spectator at someone's needless death. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy going to the Hamilton museum to watch the flying nor to CFB Trenton to watch the RCAF's CF-18s, CC-177s and CC-130s take off and land.

 

[pbehn]

Indeed. Nearly every weekend here in Toronto the Avro Lancaster from the museum in Hamilton Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum - Canadian Aviation History - Wartime Vintage Aircraft flies over my house and around the CN Tower on revenue flights. I don't need to see it partaking in aerobatics, it's just great to hear those four Packard Merlins approaching and seeing the Lanc fly by. I've for the most part stopped going to air shows as I'm reluctant for entertainment's sake to be a spectator at someone's needless death. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy going to the Hamilton museum to watch the flying nor to CFB Trenton to watch the RCAF's CF-18s, CC-177s and CC-130s take off and land.

On the Mynarski Lancasters last trip to UK it developed engine trouble and landed at my local airport which was the actual RAF airfield that Mynarski was based at, Middleton St George. It was fitted with another engine from the BBMF and did a shake down flight. It passed over my mothers house,, labouring into strong headwinds just as we opened the front door setting off to bury her brother who was ex Bomber Command. My mother had no interest in aviation but recognised the sight and sound of a WW2 aircraft. I am not at all spiritual but there were massive coincidences involved that made me think a bit. Her house wasnt even on the landing run to the airport, only the headwinds made the pilot use a different approach. There were no challenging aerobatics but it was an unforgettable sight and sound.

 

[Admiral Beez]

On the Mynarski Lancasters last trip to UK it developed engine trouble and landed at my local airport which was the actual RAF airfield that Mynarski was based at, Middleton St George. It was fitted with another engine from the BBMF and did a shake down flight.

I remember that. I wonder how often Canadian-built Lancasters had one of their US-built Packard Merlins swapped out for a Rolls Royce one? Assuming that most Canadian Lancasters were deployed in Britain perhaps it was a common thing.

You can see my house as the CN Tower goes past.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJsZlYIrZY

 

[pbehn]

I remember that. I wonder how often Canadian-built Lancasters had one of their US-built Packard Merlins swapped out for a Rolls Royce one? Assuming that most Canadian Lancasters were deployed in Britain perhaps it was a common thing.

You can see my house as the CN Tower goes past.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJsZlYIrZY

I have no idea, as I understand it the two engine are nominally the same as far as engine "engineering" goes but things like controls were slightly different. During WW2 I think they would have access to Packard replacements. I cant remember reading what was fitted to the Mynarski Lanc. The press saying it was fitted with a new "Merlin" doesnt mean it it wasnt a Packard "Merlin", usually they think its a jet engine. I presume the BBMF and UK warbird community have access to both.

 

[Engineman]

I remember when this Nimrod low speed banked, stalled and crashed here in Toronto and thinking at the time, surely this is wholly predictable?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scpTAMOxH2I

The report on this accident found that the aircraft was flown too slowly in a display with a large bank angle in the turn and stalled the wing. Although power was applied and recovery attempted, the aircraft could not recover before hitting the water. Overall, similar to the earlier accidents.

Eng

 

[gumbyk]

Display flying like this places different pressures on both plane and pilot. You are trying to keep the aircraft in front of the crowd as much as possible, and may have congested areas of housing that you cannot fly over. The result is that if you get off line, then your return to the display line may need to be tighter than planned. Add to that the fact that you're operating with many safety systems turned off, and close to the ground, so you're looking outside more than you normally would, with little margin for error, and these accidents are more understandable.

 

[Engineman]

I read an article on air crashes where pilots became disorientated flying in cloud. They started to distrust instruments and trust their senses, resulting in progressing downwards in a 1G spiral. I cant imagine there is a manual or instructions for such manoeuvers so its a fly by the seat of your pants with no regard to airspeed and bank angle which feels OK until suddenly it doesnt. Inviting people to put on an "impressive display" doesnt help at all.

Hi,
Disorientation can happen in all circumstances, but it can become more likely as good visual clues are lost. This is something that professional pilots are trained to understand and know how to recognise and safely deal with. Good military pilot training will also include a large amount of training about these problems and how to avoid falling for them and becoming a statistic.
Beyond that, there is a whole world of difference between the simplest aircraft and the best equipped for bad weather IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions). I started on a wood glider with just an ASI and a altimeter. But aircraft can have really comprehensive blind-flying instruments / displays. However, the pilot is the primary part of the chain and there are many private pilots who never have an instrument rating. Whatever the equipment fit, there are regulations and procedures for flying all aircraft safely, and that might come down to non-IMC rated pilots avoiding IMC!
Unfortunately, some of the simpler IMC equipped aircraft are susceptible to basic faulty instruments, particularly mechanical artificial horizon problems. Procedures will exist to work around these faults but often pilots lack skill to resolve them safely.

Eng

 

[Admiral Beez]

I have no idea, as I understand it the two engine are nominally the same as far as engine "engineering" goes but things like controls were slightly different. During WW2 I think they would have access to Packard replacements. I cant remember reading what was fitted to the Mynarski Lanc. The press saying it was fitted with a new "Merlin" doesnt mean it it wasnt a Packard "Merlin", usually they think its a jet engine. I presume the BBMF and UK warbird community have access to both.

I recall that the Canadians had to return the loaner Merlin before flying home. So a team must have been actively repairing the Canuck engine during the UK tour.

 

[gumbyk]

Unfortunately, some of the simpler IMC equipped aircraft are susceptible to basic faulty instruments, particularly mechanical artificial horizon problems. Procedures will exist to work around these faults but often pilots lack skill to resolve then safely.

The pilot fails more often than any instrument will fail without obvious signs.
The only time I asked my instructor to take over was when I had the 'leans' flying IMC. Even knowing what was happening, and focussing on the A/H I struggled to maintain straight and level.

All of these accidents were day, VMC though, so disorientation wasn't likely an issue.

 

[nuuumannn]

I presume the BBMF and UK warbird community have access to both.

Bear in mind that the Lancaster Mk.III was powered by Packard built Merlins, as was the Spitfire XVI during the war. The BBMF regularly swaps engines among its airframes. I remember that one of its Hurricanes was grounded for a bit owing to its Merlin being taken out and fitted to something else.

 

[Engineman]

All of these accidents were day, VMC though, so disorientation wasn't likely an issue.

That is possibly true. But Disorientation is not an all-or-nothing thing and the normal refresh cycle of processing information while flying is a constant state of reorientation to a changing situation.
As you probably know, recklessness, distraction, stress and other perception issues come into many major accidents. Then there is Skill. Skill, IMO, is a very complex element of Ability. Skills can be learned but often, particularly in demanding flying, underlying Aptitude to the task will define how skilled a pilot can become.

Eng

 

[JDCAVE]

I remember that. I wonder how often Canadian-built Lancasters had one of their US-built Packard Merlins swapped out for a Rolls Royce one? Assuming that most Canadian Lancasters were deployed in Britain perhaps it was a common thing.

You can see my house as the CN Tower goes past.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJsZlYIrZY

The 64 Base ORBs have considerable details on parts and servicing. I would be very surprised if RR Merlin's were swapped in for PM Merlins. There were a great many Lancaster IIIs around and lots of PMs around. Also, they did not swap out the PM38s with PM224s. There is considerable discussion in the 64 base ORBs about incompatibility of parts and remarks on specific shortages of various parts. It's worth a read and very enlightening.

Jim

 

[JDCAVE]

I read an article on air crashes where pilots became disorientated flying in cloud. They started to distrust instruments and trust their senses, resulting in progressing downwards in a 1G spiral. I cant imagine there is a manual or instructions for such manoeuvers so its a fly by the seat of your pants with no regard to airspeed and bank angle which feels OK until suddenly it doesnt. Inviting people to put on an "impressive display" doesnt help at all.

During the war there were specific courses on instrument flying and blind flying. This included blacked out cockpits.

In his audio memoirs dad said his biggest fear was seachlights. they cause him serious vestibular issues and to distrust his instruments. He was coned on two occasions and it scared the shit out of him.

WRT to weather, the biggest fear was icing. During the raid to Chemnitz, 5/6-March-1945, 7 aircraft crashed immediately after takeoff, killing 40 of 49 aircrew. In five of the crashes, icing was found to be causal. Two more crashed in return with 10 aircrew killed. Again icing was contributing.

Chemnitz: F/L Cave recalled "The weather was punk. It was rotten!" F/O Geoff Marlow of 434 Squadron remembered "…moments after take-off, we entered stratus cloud, and I began flying on instruments. We tried to climb above the clouds, but the heavily laden Lancaster simply would not go any higher. During one of these attempts, I took my eyes off the instruments for a few moments and when I looked at them again, they told me that we were losing height at 1,000 feet-per-minute and were in a 45o bank. As I got the plane under control and back on course, I felt a little embarrassed, but when I looked around at Frank Ferry sitting next to me, he seemed not to have noticed anything unusual, so I kept quiet, and set about trying to regain the lost altitude!"