P-38 or Mosquito? (1 Viewer)

[Shortround6]

One does wonder how effective the P-38 nightfighter would have been on long missions.

Not saying the Mosquito was the height of luxury but the guy in the back seat of a P-38 was going to be more than a bit uncomfortable after 3-4 hours.

 

[GregP]

From any realistic perspective, the P-38 was far and away a MUCH better fighter than the Mosquito, particularly the P-38J and P-38L models with hydraulic ailerons. The people who fly them today say it is a pretty good airplane, but not something to fly when tangling with a dedicated fighter. I have heard it described as maneuverable, but not fighter-type maneuverable by current Mosquito pilots. It very certainly wasn't going to come anywhere close to rolling with a P-38 that had hydraulic ailerons, nor would it climb with a P-38,

The Mosquito was far and away a better bomber, Recce, and night fighter aircraft. It could cruise fast and long, and was the choice for a longer-range precision strike, and made a great night fighter. But there was very little night fighter versus night fighter combat ... their main function was to hunt bombers at night to prevent bomb damage. There was not real point in hunting enemy fighters because they did little to any major damage to cities. Certainly, a Mosquito NF would not ignore another enemy fighter if it found one, but that wasn't it's mission.

So, I'd pick both airplanes, but a definite "best" one for any particular mission type. They weren't very likely to overlap too often.

 

[EwenS]

The Mosquito was far and away a better bomber, Recce, and night fighter aircraft. It could cruise fast and long, and was the choice for a longer-range precision strike, and made a great night fighter. But there was very little night fighter versus night fighter combat ... their main function was to hunt bombers at night to prevent bomb damage. There was not real point in hunting enemy fighters because they did little to any major damage to cities. Certainly, a Mosquito NF would not ignore another enemy fighter if it found one, but that wasn't it's mission.

Which ignores the work of Mosquitos, and other night fighters, flying Intruder & Ranger sorties over enemy territory.

The first Mosquito Intruder sorties were flown in April 1942, initially in radarless Mk.II with additional fuel tanks behind the cannon. These were flown against "definite enemy activity" like airfields and enemy night fighter assembly areas. From Feb 1943 freelance Ranger operations were flown targeting aircraft, disrupting training schedules and ground targets.

From Oct 1943 Mosquito NF.II with AI.IV and Serrate Homer replaced Beaufighters in 141 squadron actively hunting enemy night fighters in support of Bomber Command. It was joined by 2 more such units before the year was out. These squadrons became part of 100 (BomberSupport) Group in Dec 1943/Jan 1944. As well as targeting enemy NF assembly areas they patrolled the target areas and provided a distant escort to the bomber stream. Centrimetric AI radars were only cleared for use over enemy territory in Europe & the Med in April 1944.

Eventually 100 Group had 7 radar equipped Mosquito NF squadrons deployed on Bomber Support duties. They used Mosquito NF.II/VI(some with ASH)/XII/XVII/XIX/XXX aircraft. While part of 100 Group these squadrons claimed 258 enemy aircraft in air to air combat plus 18 more on the ground.

They were joined in the skies over enemy territory from Aug 1944 by Mosquito NF squadrons from Air Defence of Great Britain as the Luftwaffe and V1 threat to Britain was much reduced.

 

[ThomasP]

re "One does wonder how effective the P-38 nightfighter would have been on long missions."

I am going from memory so this could be wrong/incomplete, but IIRC the only(?) P-38Ms to see service were stationed in Japan post-war. Again IIRC, they were only based there until more suitable airframes became available in the form of the P-61 and then P-82. In service at least, they were intended for point defense in concert with GCI, never for standing patrols or long-range intruder missions.

 

[EwenS]

re "One does wonder how effective the P-38 nightfighter would have been on long missions."

I am going from memory so this could be wrong/incomplete, but IIRC the only(?) P-38Ms to see service were stationed in Japan post-war. Again IIRC, they were only based there until more suitable airframes became available in the form of the P-61 and then P-82. In service at least, they were intended for point defense in concert with GCI, never for standing patrols or long-range intruder missions.

The origins of the P-38 night fighter go back to 1943 with 5th AF in SWPA. The P-70 night fighters then available to them (conversions from A-20 Havocs) were not up to the job of catching Japanese Betty bombers. So a couple of single seat P-38s were converted locally and fitted with radar.

That led to Lockheed trialling a two seat P-38L conversion in 1944 which proved about 40mph faster than a P-61. The USAAF then ordered 80 (some sources say 75 but 80 serials have been identified) P-38M night fighter conversions from P-38L-5 airframes. These only began to be produced from March 1945 at Lockheed's Dallas Modification Center.

When the war ended 8 P-38M and their crews were at a west coast port ready for shipping to the Philippines for operational trials. Only 4 seem to have been shipped at the end of the day. These aircraft eventually joined the P-61 equipped 418th NFS after it moved from Okinawa to Atsugi, Japan in Oct 1945. One was lost in Jan 1946.

I think the main problems have been covered. Cramped accommodation for the radar operator (one pilot put 2 hours as the limit that a radar operator could suffer!). The other was the glow from the turbosuperchargers. Checking the fuel filler caps became essential as the turbos had a habit of sucking fuel out and setting it on fire. Was this an issue for other P-38 models?

I don't know what, if any, postwar use other than the above was made of these aircraft. But the P-61C began to be accepted in July 1945 and was intended for large scale production but this never happened either due to the end of WW2.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Checking the fuel filler caps became essential as the turbos had a habit of sucking fuel out and setting it on fire. Was this an issue for other P-38 models?

I worked with people who built and flew P-38s, first time I ever heard of this. You leave a fuel cap loose on any aircraft that is located on the top of a wing, fuel will be sucked out.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

The origins of the P-38 night fighter go back to 1943 with 5th AF in SWPA. The P-70 night fighters then available to them (conversions from A-20 Havocs) were not up to the job of catching Japanese Betty bombers. So a couple of single seat P-38s were converted locally and fitted with radar.

That led to Lockheed trialling a two seat P-38L conversion in 1944 which proved about 40mph faster than a P-61. The USAAF then ordered 80 (some sources say 75 but 80 serials have been identified) P-38M night fighter conversions from P-38L-5 airframes. These only began to be produced from March 1945 at Lockheed's Dallas Modification Center.

When the war ended 8 P-38M and their crews were at a west coast port ready for shipping to the Philippines for operational trials. Only 4 seem to have been shipped at the end of the day. These aircraft eventually joined the P-61 equipped 418th NFS after it moved from Okinawa to Atsugi, Japan in Oct 1945. One was lost in Jan 1946.

I think the main problems have been covered. Cramped accommodation for the radar operator (one pilot put 2 hours as the limit that a radar operator could suffer!). The other was the glow from the turbosuperchargers. Checking the fuel filler caps became essential as the turbos had a habit of sucking fuel out and setting it on fire. Was this an issue for other P-38 models?

I don't know what, if any, postwar use other than the above was made of these aircraft. But the P-61C began to be accepted in July 1945 and was intended for large scale production but this never happened either due to the end of WW2.

Based on the studies I posted previuosly the P-38 used as night fighters in SWPA were not fitted with radar but were rather used on "Wild Boar" type missions.

The reason the P-38M missed the party was that it had to wait until radar became small enough to fit it. There was no room to fit the SCR 720 (A.K.A. AI Mk X) used in the P-61 and Mosquito NFs. Theoretically it could have been in service in mid 1944 but the APS-6 radar was reserved for the US Navy's night fighters. The APS-6 was an adaption of the air to surface ASH (A.K.A. APS-4) radar that had proved to have some use as an AI radar particularly at low levels, however, it was not as capable as the SCR 720.
Due to a shortage of AI Mk Xs the RAF equipped some Mosquito FB VI's with ASH in a thimble nose but this was only a stop gap until sufficient Mk Xs were available.
The Mosquitos were also equipped with a full suite of electronic aids (Serrate or Perfectos, Gee, Monica) which would not fit the P-38M.

 

[EwenS]

Agreed that single seater P-38s were used in 1944 as you describe. But there are a number of sources that refer to 2 P-38F/G conversions in SWPA equipped with SCR-540 radar complete with arrowhead aerial on the nose in early 1943. I don't have photos to hand but for example, Joe Baugher makes reference in his P-38M page.

Lockheed P-38M Lightning

And this Modelling site makes reference to entries in a number of books/magazine articles some of which had photos and includes some quotes and references to photos.

Hasegawa 1/48 P-38G w/YAGI radar, by Andrew Garcia

Anyone got Queen of the Skies to verify the quotes and photos?

23 & 515 squadrons RAF received ASH equipped Mosquito VI in Oct/Nov 1944 which they flew until the end of the war. It also went into Firefly NF.I from mid-1944. But, AIUI, ASH in the night fighter role lacked some of the features of AN/APS-6 (e.g. the blind fire capability).

 

[Greg Boeser]

I don't know a lot about bombers, but I vote for the Mosquito. I think it could take much dammage than the P-38.

And concerning the dive bombing, I agree with Plan_D. Any plane armed with bombs could sink a ship. After all, wich plane sank the Tirpitz ? I think it was a Spit, wasn't it ?

P-39

 

[GrauGeist]

I have seen quite a few sites that assume the P-38E "Swordfish" (41-2048) was radar equipped, which although it may look like it to some, wasn't.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Agreed that single seater P-38s were used in 1944 as you describe. But there are a number of sources that refer to 2 P-38F/G conversions in SWPA equipped with SCR-540 radar complete with arrowhead aerial on the nose in early 1943. I don't have photos to hand but for example, Joe Baugher makes reference in his P-38M page.

Lockheed P-38M Lightning

And this Modelling site makes reference to entries in a number of books/magazine articles some of which had photos and includes some quotes and references to photos.

Hasegawa 1/48 P-38G w/YAGI radar, by Andrew Garcia

Anyone got Queen of the Skies to verify the quotes and photos?

23 & 515 squadrons RAF received ASH equipped Mosquito VI in Oct/Nov 1944 which they flew until the end of the war. It also went into Firefly NF.I from mid-1944. But, AIUI, ASH in the night fighter role lacked some of the features of AN/APS-6 (e.g. the blind fire capability).

Sounds like a one off that never made it to combat.

 

[wuzak]

The droop snoot P-38 suggests that a modification could have been made to fit the SCR 720 radar, but that would need a new location for the guns and even more equipment to cram into the cockpit.

I'm sure a gun pack could have been developed to fit 4 x 20mm or 4 x 0.50" guns, but proper accomodation for the radar operator and his equipment would, surely, have needed a new crew nacelle developed.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Which ignores the work of Mosquitos, and other night fighters, flying Intruder & Ranger sorties over enemy territory.

The first Mosquito Intruder sorties were flown in April 1942, initially in radarless Mk.II with additional fuel tanks behind the cannon. These were flown against "definite enemy activity" like airfields and enemy night fighter assembly areas. From Feb 1943 freelance Ranger operations were flown targeting aircraft, disrupting training schedules and ground targets.

From Oct 1943 Mosquito NF.II with AI.IV and Serrate Homer replaced Beaufighters in 141 squadron actively hunting enemy night fighters in support of Bomber Command. It was joined by 2 more such units before the year was out. These squadrons became part of 100 (BomberSupport) Group in Dec 1943/Jan 1944. As well as targeting enemy NF assembly areas they patrolled the target areas and provided a distant escort to the bomber stream. Centrimetric AI radars were only cleared for use over enemy territory in Europe & the Med in April 1944.

Eventually 100 Group had 7 radar equipped Mosquito NF squadrons deployed on Bomber Support duties. They used Mosquito NF.II/VI(some with ASH)/XII/XVII/XIX/XXX aircraft. While part of 100 Group these squadrons claimed 258 enemy aircraft in air to air combat plus 18 more on the ground.

They were joined in the skies over enemy territory from Aug 1944 by Mosquito NF squadrons from Air Defence of Great Britain as the Luftwaffe and V1 threat to Britain was much reduced.

I would also mention the Instep Patrols over the Bay of Biscay where Mosquitos fought Ju88s and FW190s.

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