Reluctant Poster
Staff Sergeant
- 1,467
- Dec 6, 2006
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Wasn't the 14th withdrawn from combat for some months early in 1943 due to unsustainable losses?A good thread, chaps. I'll just add a couple of notes:
First, very (very) few internet queries realize that there was no such thing as THE P-38 or THE P-47 or THE 109 or etc etc. Obviously they all came in different flavors & capabilities.
As secretary of the American Fighter Aces Assn I new lots of P-38 guys, and almost without exception they loved the airplane. HOWEVER, some distinguished between the early models (up to F or G) and the later models, particularly the J and L.
Secondly, it's little realized but in researching the 15th AF history, I found that the three P-38 groups scored almost no aerial victories after August 44 (when Ploesti was captured). The Lightnings were largely removed from bomber escort in favor of bombing & strafing.
However, comma: one of the most illuminating documents was a postwar letter from Col. Obie Taylor who rebuilt the 14FG after N Africa. He said that the 38 required about 50 percent more training than a single-engine fighter "but thereafter the P-38 pilot should be nearly unbeatable."
Given that they built only nineteen of the QF6 pounder (57mm) cannon Mosquitos, it clearly was not perceived as a success. They preferred the 60lb rockets.I think the B 25 and Mozzie teste with 6 pounder/75mm cannons were the ultimate straffers, the Mozzie with four hispano/four .303 browings were good too on shipping, The P47 was big enough for 6 hispano's or two .50's and two 37mm's, that would have been a cool machine.
As I noted in an earlier post, the 17 (not 19) Mk.XVIII were built in small batches of 2 or 3 airframes at a time, between Sept 1943 and Jan 1945. And they remained in squadron service from Oct 1943 until the end of the war. The modifications to the aircraft were extensive to withstand the shock of the gun's recoil. A lot of armour plate was added around the nose and engines, adding to aircraft weight and affecting performance. So they were very much a niche aircraft.Given that they built only nineteen of the QF6 pounder (57mm) cannon Mosquitos, it clearly was not perceived as a success. They preferred the 60lb rockets.
Yes. Hence Barrett's phrase 'rebuild'. The losses were not so much the F or G model related faults but poor pilot training in type and poor combat tactics in theatre due to inexperience - no mentorship from 'previous' P-38 warriors. They were the first and tried to fight in horizontal, therby neutralizing the natural P-38 attributes of speed, acceleration and rate of climb.Wasn't the 14th withdrawn from combat for some months early in 1943 due to unsustainable losses?
Thats the first time I have ever defended the P-38Yes. Hence Barrett's phrase 'rebuild'. The losses were not so much the F or G model related faults but poor pilot training in type and poor combat tactics in theatre due to inexperience - no mentorship from 'previous' P-38 warriors. They were the first and tried to fight in horizontal, therby neutralizing the natural P-38 attributes of speed, acceleration and rate of climb.
Your earlier comments about 'accuracy' were sound. Hub Zemke noted that of the three top US Fighters he took into combat, the "P-38 was the best gun platform" and it also translated in dive/glide bombing accuracy as the airplane was significantly stable in Yaw due to prop rotation scheme. That said, he also stated that the P-51 was best for manueverability and range.
Only light forces on rudder required for both speed and throttle changes for P-38 whereas both the P-47 and P-51 required rudder feed and trim changes.
If I am truly objective, I would have to say my 'animosity' toward the P-38 was more irritation with Bodie's slavish devotion to the "P-38 didn't get a fair shake in ETO", coupled with "The P-38K w/Merlin - which would have solved every issue". Specifically he blamed lack of success in comparison to Merlin Mustang to politics.Thats the first time I have ever defended the P-38
The veterans association for the 449th BG (15th AF) published a couple of books of memories from the air and ground crews. From what I remember from reading my dad's books, they said that the Romanian air force was pretty much finished off during the 4/4/44 raid on Ploesti; the Luftwaffe took up some of the slack, but most of the threat after that was from the anti-aircraft batteries.Secondly, it's little realized but in researching the 15th AF history, I found that the three P-38 groups scored almost no aerial victories after August 44 (when Ploesti was captured). The Lightnings were largely removed from bomber escort in favor of bombing & strafing.
The whole posting was very informative. The following has been posted before on other threads so apologies for those who may remember it.Edit:- trials with the FB.VI with rockets didn't take place until the end of Sept 1944. They proved successful and were quickly fitted to the Banff Wing Mossies who flew their first rocket equipped mission on 26 Oct 1944 after training on the local bombing ranges. Prior to that the call in Coastal Command had been for more Tse Tse.
Even transferring at 6 weeks ops (approx Jan 15, 1944) TAC wasn't tasked to fly CAS or low level attack until just before D-Day in mid May. So instead of fighting the LW over Berlin he flew Jugs in shorter range penetration/withdrawal escort. Missions. The 354th FG didn't fly that many CAS in Mustangs, much more B-26/A-26 escort medium range until assigned P-47 for two months, spanning the Bulge ops December/January. Then 354th got Mustangs again and finished with medium bomber escort and tactical sweeps.A little story. After my Dad retired in 1986, he had a neighbor who flew in the ETO. He was assigned to the first Mustang group in the 9AF. after about 6 weeks on operations they came looking for pilots for a TAF P-47 group. He was the only pilot to volunteer! All his buddies said "what are you doing, we're flying the P-51!" He told them if he was going to be flying ground attack, he wanted to be in the P-47! He had pictures in his den of 3 shot up P-47's that he belly landed back at his home base. He comment was that if any had been a Mustang, he would have been a POW. Or worse. He had flown Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightning's so I asked which of the three was his favorite to fly. He said that the P-38L with the dive flaps and boosted ailerons was hands down, the "most fun to throw about the sky"
what was his name?I don't know when he joined the 354th group. I believe it was already operational in the ETO when he got there.