P-39 or P-40 for rest of war?

Vincenzo said:

maybe but over 6000 meters Zero were fastest, and also at P-40 FTH 50 mph slower afaik it's too for contemporary P-40 and Zero

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I agree
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that a P-40 variant was ever 50mph faster than an A6M variant, the greatest speed differential between the two fighters was in the early incarnations of both types; the P-40B was around 34mph faster than the A6M2 and this at altitudes favouring the P-40.

The P-40 most likely to cut it against the A6M at altitude, the P-40L (or F, if you can stand the 4mph drop in max speed).

Agree with Colin Vicenco.

Think we could consider the P-40N as a competitor vs. Zeros too. It was able to top 600 km/h, admittedly on a modest altitude.

tomo pauk said:

Think we could consider the P-40N as a competitor vs. Zeros too. It was able to top 600 km/h, admittedly on a modest altitude.

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The P-40N was a howler
quite how Curtiss could get a P-40L to 368mph @ 20,000ft then succeed it with a model that could manage 378mph @ 10,000ft is a mystery; it baffles me that it was made in greater numbers than any other variant at a time when P-40 production should have ceased.

Contemporary of the P-40N was the Ki-84, offering near-400mph performance at twice the height of the N.

Colin1 said:

I agree
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that a P-40 variant was ever 50mph faster than an A6M variant, the greatest speed deficit between the two fighters was in the early incarnations of both types; the P-40B was around 34mph faster than the A6M2 and this at altitudes favouring the P-40.

The P-40 most likely to cut it against the A6M at altitude, the P-40L (or F, if you can stand the 4mph drop in max speed).

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I can sure take the 4mph drop in max speed, considering it was at 5,000ft higher than the Speed from the "E" model. at around 22,000ft the "F" was actually about 20-30mph faster than an "E" although the "E" was 10-20 MPH faster from sea level to over 15,000ft.

"F"s start coming of the production line in the beginning of 1942. It might be interesting to see what an "F" or "L" model could have done if given the "N" treatment (Mag wheels, aluminum radiators, and so on) Although the armament reduction was carried a little too far.

Vincenzo said:

maybe but over 6000 meters Zero were fastest, and also at P-40 FTH 50 mph slower afaik it's too for contemporary P-40 and Zero

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which is why in the context of the previous paragraphs i wrote, the P-39 would be the better plane. Given the range of the battles and the fact japan would be fighting from sea, Zeros aren't likely to be flying at 6000m.

Colin1 said:

I agree
I've never seen any evidence to suggest that a P-40 variant was ever 50mph faster than an A6M variant, the greatest speed deficit between the two fighters was in the early incarnations of both types; the P-40B was around 34mph faster than the A6M2 and this at altitudes favouring the P-40.

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There is evidence.You are thinking of top speeds at full throttle heights, plus the Allison was discovered to have a greater potential at lower altitudes. The P-40E could run at 70" boost under 10,000ft which gave the bird a considerable jump on low flying Zeros.

Its not like the Zero was the only plane to contend with, either.

Eric Schilling of the AVG was able to give a run down of top speeds at medium altitudes where most combat was flown:
"The P-40B was. . .
40 mph faster than the AM6-2 (21) Zero.
50 mph faster than the Hyabusa, or Ki-43.
70 mph faster than the fixed gear I-96.
195 mph faster than the cruise speed of the Ki-21 Sally.
130 mph faster in a dive than any Japanese fighter.
3 times the roll rate of the Zero."

There is little mention of the Ki-44 through 100, including the ki-84 and ki-61, but my thinking is that these planes would be operating at higher altitudes, per their design, but competing with a later model P-40K,M or N was more likely to be fought at lower altitudes where the P-40 met on even terms or even held a speed advantage.

I think the P-40 was still known to have many positive traits where its turn characteristics were more desired than the Mustangs in some parts of the Pacific. Had the fights been at higher altitudes, then i think it would've been a different story.
It may have also been because the Mustang was seen as an easy target because of its radiator which for some reason didn't plague the P-40 the same way. At least the literature suggests the Allison was well armored, and perhaps the the location of the radiator was less susceptible than the Mustangs. (front vs lower rear)

For me, its the P-40 turn characteristics that win it over the P-39 to answer the OP. The P-39 had a different center of gravity which set it up for a nasty stall and was not able to turn the same way, despite being faster than the P-40, The P-39 still had a place in lower altitude combat and the cannons could be very destructive to bombers, but if i had to choose one it would be the 40.


Bill

If the Australians have to a make a choice in Late 1941 or Early 1942 (DEC-Feb) it won't be a P-40B or C. Both have been out of production for a number of months. Unless of course, they are forced to fly well used handme downs.

billswagger said:

Dave Schilling of the AVG was able to give a run down of top speeds at medium altitudes where most combat was flown:
"The P-40B was. . .
40 mph faster than the AM6-2 (21) Zero.
50 mph faster than the Hyabusa, or Ki-43.
70 mph faster than the fixed gear I-96.
195 mph faster than the cruise speed of the Ki-21 Sally.
130 mph faster in a dive than any Japanese fighter.
3 times the roll rate of the Zero."

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Dave Schilling? Do you mean Eric Schilling? Not the most reliable source from what i've read.

Nikademus said:

Dave Schilling? Do you mean Eric Schilling? Not the most reliable source from what i've read.

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dang it. yes Eric Schilling, and i also question some of the things he says but the numbers here are actually close enough to quote.



Bill

billswagger said:

There is evidence.You are thinking of top speeds at full throttle heights, plus the Allison was discovered to have a greater potential at lower altitudes. The P-40E could run at 70" boost under 10,000ft which gave the bird a considerable jump on low flying Zeros.

Its not like the Zero was the only plane to contend with, either.

Eric Schilling of the AVG was able to give a run down of top speeds at medium altitudes where most combat was flown:
"The P-40B was. . .
40 mph faster than the AM6-2 (21) Zero.
50 mph faster than the Hyabusa, or Ki-43.
70 mph faster than the fixed gear I-96.
195 mph faster than the cruise speed of the Ki-21 Sally.
130 mph faster in a dive than any Japanese fighter.
3 times the roll rate of the Zero."

Bill

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for Schilling i'm agree with Nikademus

for speed: so P-40E go to 350 mph at sea lavel (put that A6M3 go to 300 mph)? or go a 385 mph at 10000 ft (put that A6M3 go to 335 mph) ?

billswagger said:

which is why in the context of the previous paragraphs i wrote, the P-39 would be the better plane. Given the range of the battles and the fact japan would be fighting from sea, Zeros aren't likely to be flying at 6000m.
Bill

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According to this description of one raid against Darwin, The Japanese fighter escort was at 31,000 feet (9450m), and the bombers were at 26,000 feet (7900m).
The day the planes "all fell into the sea": Darwin Raid 54-2 May 1943. | Goliath Business News
AFAIK these altitudes were not exceptional.

Vincenzo said:

maybe but over 6000 meters Zero were fastest, and also at P-40 FTH 50 mph slower afaik it's too for contemporary P-40 and Zero

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i want partially correcr this the merlin engined P-40s was faster of Zero also at high quote but never of 50 mph (max around 30 mph)

In hindsight the P40N and F are both pretty good airplanes vs the various Japanese planes.
However, at the point of making a decision to use one type to wars end, we would be looking at P40E and P39D. Below is a comparison chart of the types Australia had access to. Available here:Perils P40 Archive Data
Using that particular chart in a staff meeting to make a decision, the Spitfire VC is going to be picked!
For purposes of the question in this thread though: given the distances involved in that theatre, and the slim perf advantage of the P39, the P40 would be my choice because of better endurance and range on internal fuel. Drop the tanks, fight for 10 minutes, and then make it back to base.

{why pick Spit VC when range is my determining factor for picking P40? The Spit has significant performance advantage, 35 mph vmax, +6000 ft celing, half the time to climb to 20k. Which is why you shouldn't have one type, different missions require different planes.}

Timppa said:

According to this description of one raid against Darwin, The Japanese fighter escort was at 31,000 feet (9450m), and the bombers were at 26,000 feet (7900m).
The day the planes "all fell into the sea": Darwin Raid 54-2 May 1943. | Goliath Business News
AFAIK these altitudes were not exceptional.

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That was an interesting read. I guess the capability was there, but it doesn't seem like such high altitude efforts were very effective.

Most of the damage done by the Japanese involved attacks on shipping with the use of submarines.

Vincenzo said:

i want partially correcr this the merlin engined P-40s was faster of Zero also at high quote but never of 50 mph (max around 30 mph)

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The 30-50mph speed difference was a generalization, and dependent on variant and altitudes. A P-40E is closer to 50mph faster than an A6M2, and a P-40B is still faster than an A6M3. You can look up exact numbers if you want to beat me up over exact numbers.
Comparing top speeds is really apples to apples when you consider the disparity in dive speeds, which is what made the P-40 so much faster than the a6m in the first place. On top of that, the P-40 was decisively faster than the A6M in level flight.

afaik P-40B was not faster of A6M3, and P-40E is closer to 50mph faster of A6M2 only if this don't go a max power (2550 rpm +250 mm Hg)

Is there a table that lists speeds of various Zero marks available online?

tomo pauk said:

Is there a table that lists speeds of various Zero marks available online?

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______________________________A6M1_________A6M2_________A6M3_________A6M5_________A6M7
Engine:____________________Zuisei 13_________Sakae 12________Sakae 21_________Sakae 21________Sakae 31a
TO hp:_____________________780_____________940____________1130____________1130__________1130
Loaded weight:______________5,155lbs_________5,313lbs_________5,609lbs_________6,025lbs________6,600lbs
Wing loading lb/sq ft:_________21.3____________22.0____________24.2_____________26.3__________28.9
Power loading lb/sq ft:________5.9_____________5.4_____________5.7______________6.1___________6.7
Max speed:_________________316.3mph________331.5mph_______338mph__________351mph________337mph
@ altitude:_________________11,800ft_________14,930ft_________19,685ft_________19,685ft________20,992ft
Rate of climb:_______________7 min 15sec to____5 min 50sec to____7 min 19 sec to____7 min 1sec to____7 min 58sec to
_____________________________16,400ft_________16,400ft________19,680ft__________19,680ft________19,680ft
Ceiling:____________________n/k_____________33,780ft_________36,240ft__________36,240ft_______33,390ft
Range:____________________n/k_____________1,930___________1,447_____________1,194_________943

"... how Curtiss could get a P-40L to 368mph @ 20,000ft then succeed it with a model that could manage 378mph @ 10,000ft is a mystery; it baffles me that it was made in greater numbers than any other variant at a time when P-40 production should have ceased."

Colin1 I agree - the whole P-40 story is a bit of a "mystery". The company was publicly (in the stock market sense of the word public) active during the war - it imploded in on itself almost immediately after war end - the attitude about Curtiss wartime achievement is "cynical" (no "star" in their livery) but overall they clearly new how to "build" mass produced planes. The P-40, the Commando C-46, the Hell Diver, and a bunch of specialty stuff.

I tried googling "Donovan Berlin" but can find nothing on the internet. Colin1 what do you know about the mysterious Mr. Berlin

MM

Colin1 said:

______________________________A6M1_________A6M2_________A6M3_________A6M5_________A6M7
Engine:____________________Zuisei 13_________Sakae 12________Sakae 21_________Sakae 21________Sakae 31a
TO hp:_____________________780_____________940____________1130____________1130__________1130
Loaded weight:______________5,155lbs_________5,313lbs_________5,609lbs_________6,025lbs________6,600lbs
Wing loading lb/sq ft:_________21.3____________22.0____________24.2_____________26.3__________28.9
Power loading lb/sq ft:________5.9_____________5.4_____________5.7______________6.1___________6.7
Max speed:_________________316.3mph________331.5mph_______338mph__________351mph________337mph
@ altitude:_________________11,800ft_________14,930ft_________19,685ft_________19,685ft________20,992ft
Rate of climb:_______________7 min 15sec to____5 min 50sec to____7 min 19 sec to____7 min 1sec to____7 min 58sec to
_____________________________16,400ft_________16,400ft________19,680ft__________19,680ft________19,680ft
Ceiling:____________________n/k_____________33,780ft_________36,240ft__________36,240ft_______33,390ft
Range:____________________n/k_____________1,930___________1,447_____________1,194_________943

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this are from Francillon?

i've not source to support but after years looking data on web the speed of A6M2 it a bit too slow (335/345 afaik) the speed of A6M3 it's too slow (350/360 afaik) and M5 a bit too slow (355/365 afaik). the M5 with same engine of M£ go 13mph fast in this table i think a bit high for only the individual exhaust stubs

michaelmaltby said:

I tried googling "Donovan Berlin" but can find nothing on the internet. Colin1 what do you know about the mysterious Mr. Berlin

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Not a great deal
Ralph Damon transitioned (along with the company) from President of Curtiss-Wright Airplane Company to VP and General Manager of Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Company in 1934, moving to Buffalo NY in the process. In the same year the USAAC put out a circular for a new single-seater fighter for a competition to be held in 1935. They (the USAAC) were looking for something that offered a 'significant advance' over the P-26.

Damon, having seen CW lose one fighter contract to Boeing and an attack aircraft contract to Northrop saw this as an opportunity to win some significant Air Corps business.

He hired Donovan Berlin, who was the Chief Engineer at Northrop prior to leaving the company. Berlin's portfolio whilst at Northrop consisted of programs such as the all-metal, low-wing monoplanes that Northrop had made throughout the 30s. He too, moved to Buffalo and commenced work on the new fighter for the Design 75 program.

The Model 75, as it became known, was once again an all-metal, low-wing monoplane but structural support and bracing were all internal. It had an enclosed cockpit and retractable landing gear; though not revolutionary, it was a break from the past.

I've no idea why Berlin left Curtiss-Wright, it doesn't appear to be well documented but I did come by a book in the middle of last year, currently sitting patiently on my shelf for its turn at the reading table:

Curtiss-Wright
Greatness and Decline

Louis R Eltscher
Edward M Young

ISBN: 0-8057-9829-3

It's a book about Curtiss-Wright, make no mistake, it's not about P-40s or any other CW model but I'm hoping it will offer me insight into the shenanigans going on at Curtiss-Wright at the close of WWII.

I'll see if it throws up any light on the life and times (and fate) of Mr Berlin.

Thanks Colin1 - I love the P-39 and read Lawrence Bell's biography for the same reasons - I got a couple of nuggets from the book. Larry Bell wanted to give Soviet pilots who flew P-39's ZIPPO Lighters but that idea was vetoed. He once said that he might as well push all the P-39's Bell built into the lake for all the "feedback" he got from the Russians on how they actually USED his planes.

Did Berlin DO anything after WW2?

MM