P-39 or P-40 for rest of war?

tomo pauk · Apr 14, 2010

Thanks indeed, Colin

The 1st mark available to the Aussies would've been P-40E; some 15-25 mph faster then M2 M3. The RAAF would've had to wait till the dash-N arrives (mid/late '43?), being faster than those two marks by 50 mph indeed. The M5 M6 would've halved that though, plus their speed was achieved at greater altitude, meaning that if RAAF boys were to intercept a major raid, they would've had really a troublesome time to do that.
Not unlike the air raids vs. Darwin, where Spits V struggled many times.

Perhaps the P-40F (Merlin XX, two-speed supercharger vs. single speed in Allison) would've been the best solution? With 350 mph @ 20kft it would've been pretty speedy, not giving any advantage in horizontal speed category, and many of weight-reduction measures applied to the P-40N would have make it slightly faster, but also much more better climber.

Colin1 · Apr 14, 2010

michaelmaltby said:
Did Berlin DO anything after WW2?

I have no idea whatsoever what Berlin did after the war, I have never found anything on his post-war career.

This link rang a very vague bell, I posted it a while ago and faintly remembered an opening piece about Berlin's exit from Curtiss-Wright; it just seems that it's not well documented

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/curtiss-p-40-pictorial-history-19032.html

tomo pauk · Apr 14, 2010

FWIW, here are the figures for P-39. The altitude of the max speeds achieved, I'd say those were achieved at altitudes ranging from 12,5kft (for earlier models) to 15kft (for later models) :

Juha · Apr 14, 2010

Hello Vincenzo
Colin's data is more or less identical to Japanese specification card for Zero types from A6M3 Model 32 onwards, but there has been discussion on what the speed figures really are. Are the figures max speeds in western sense or are they the speeds quaranteed by the manufacture.

Juha

michaelmaltby · Apr 14, 2010

"... until he left its employ in December 1941."

Thanks for the great colinlink, Colin1. A lot of work went into that.

By his departure date at CW in '41 - I'd say he went over to GM-Fisher and joined a failed-before-it-started venture

MM

Colin1 · Apr 14, 2010

michaelmaltby said:
Thanks for the great link, Colin1. A lot of work went into that

lol oh I definitely remember the link generally
the pics were awful - dark as hell and still not that sharp even after I cleaned them up
Still, I don't suppose they were taken with 2009 in mind...

michaelmaltby · Apr 14, 2010

The P-40 - like the Hawker Hurricane - is one of those "obsolete when the war started" planes that just kept "competing".
And the P-40 was certainly more advanced than the Hurricane ... but similar longevity. The Soviets liked neither the Hurricane nor the P-40 .

MM

Vincenzo · Apr 14, 2010

Juha said:
Hello Vincenzo
Colin's data is more or less identical to Japanese specification card for Zero types from A6M3 Model 32 onwards, but there has been discussion on what the speed figures really are. Are the figures max speeds in western sense or are they the speeds quaranteed by the manufacture.

Juha

as i understand the point there are discussion also on what power setting they are

Shortround6 · Apr 14, 2010

tomo pauk said:
Perhaps the P-40F (Merlin XX, two-speed supercharger vs. single speed in Allison) would've been the best solution? With 350 mph @ 20kft it would've been pretty speedy, not giving any advantage in horizontal speed category, and many of weight-reduction measures applied to the P-40N would have make it slightly faster, but also much more better climber.

It was supposed to be a bit faster than that, 364 at 20,000ft?

The "N" is a bit of a joke, it is also a collection of planes that vary quite bit from each other depending on block number. By the time you get to some of the last "N"s the speed is down to 343 mph at 15,000ft. Some of the weight saving tricks were reversed, like putting the electric starter and battery back in the plane. I have a feeling the the 378mph at 10,000ft is a misprint.

Some of the other weight saving tricks were not only removing two .50cal MGs but cutting the ammo for the remaining guns from 281 rpg to 201rpg.

An "F" with the lighter radiators and lighter wheels and 4 guns with full ammo might have been interesting.

Colin1 · Apr 15, 2010

Another morsel I managed to dig up, Berlin went on post-war to work on the FH-1 Phantom and Boeing-Vertol Chinook programs

tomo pauk · Apr 15, 2010

Shortround6 said:
It was supposed to be a bit faster than that, 364 at 20,000ft?

Indeed

The "N" is a bit of a joke, it is also a collection of planes that vary quite bit from each other depending on block number. By the time you get to some of the last "N"s the speed is down to 343 mph at 15,000ft. Some of the weight saving tricks were reversed, like putting the electric starter and battery back in the plane.

Perhaps they've just given up making the P-40 fast, decided that good bomb load, good range durability was more useful than 10-20 extra mph, when really fast fighters were coming from production lines (something like RAF 'did' to Hurricane)?

I have a feeling the the 378mph at 10,000ft is a misprint.

Perhaps it was achieved by WEP?

Some of the other weight saving tricks were not only removing two .50cal MGs but cutting the ammo for the remaining guns from 281 rpg to 201rpg.

Guess that was not popular with pilots...

An "F" with the lighter radiators and lighter wheels and 4 guns with full ammo might have been interesting.

Not only for Aussies; Ruskies would've loved it too I guess.

Milosh · Apr 15, 2010

Has this P-40 been mentioned?

Colin1 · Apr 15, 2010

Milosh said:
Has this P-40 been mentioned?

Was it around in December 1941 or January 1942?

claidemore · Apr 15, 2010

The 378 mph speed listed for P40-N's is with WEP.

Milosh · Apr 15, 2010

Colin1 said:
Was it around in December 1941 or January 1942?

Thread title:

P-39 or P-40 for rest of war?

War ended in 1945, did it not?

Colin1 · Apr 15, 2010

Milosh said:
Thread title:

P-39 or P-40 for rest of war?

War ended in 1945, did it not?

Jerry W. Loper said:
Let's say the country is Australia and the date is December 1941 or January 1942

There's alot of fighting to be done before the XP-40Q shows up

Markus · Apr 15, 2010

michaelmaltby said:
Thanks Colin1 - I love the P-39 and read Lawrence Bell's biography for the same reasons - I got a couple of nuggets from the book. Larry Bell wanted to give Soviet pilots who flew P-39's ZIPPO Lighters but that idea was vetoed. He once said that he might as well push all the P-39's Bell built into the lake for all the "feedback" he got from the Russians on how they actually USED his planes.

Did Berlin DO anything after WW2?

MM

He went to GM first, working on the XP-75. A website says he worked for McDonnell later.

tomo pauk · Apr 15, 2010

Hmm, P-40Q vs. P-63 Knig Cobra...
The two underdogs

Tnx for the table, Claidemore.

Milosh · Apr 15, 2010

Colin1 said:
There's alot of fighting to be done before the XP-40Q shows up

Jerry W. Loper also said in the same post:
"The catch is, they'll be either P-39s or P-40s (all the different models of each main type will become available)."

michaelmaltby · Apr 15, 2010

Don Berlin died in 1982. His obituary in the NYT DON R. BERLIN, 83, A DESIGNER OF AIRCRAFT FOR WORLD WAR II - Free Preview - The New York Times is unfortunately behind subscription firewall.

I've had better luck finding about him as "Don" rather than Donovan.

The XP-75 was truly a dog's breakfast .

M

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