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The Tempest and Typhoon were also low altitude fighters.
And almost all of the Soviet fighters were low altitude fighters -and no this was not done after they had already secured a sufficient number of high-altitude fighters. The one high altitude fighter they had, the MiG 3, they basically thought was useless because it performed badly down low, and they thought the P-47 was "not a fighter" to quote the evaluation verbatim.
The early Zeros by the way, did not have very high altitude performance ceilings either, nor did Hurricanes at least not in the Med (they were often unable to intercept high flying aircraft over Malta for example) nor quite a few other early and mid war fighters.
So I don't know how many times I have to say this - there was a purpose and a need for low altitude fighters. And the Spit V LF was one example.
So I don't know how many times I have to say this - there was a purpose and a need for low altitude fighters. And the Spit V LF was one example. It matters very little to me if that used a Merlin 45 or a 45M or a 50M or whatever. Point is it wasn't just for Seafires.
By the way Wiki also mentions that the "low altitude" merlin 32 was also used on the Spitfire PR Mk. XIII (with citation from The Spitfire Story. London: Jane's Publishing Company Ltd., 1982. ISBN 0-86720-624-1. pages 182 and 185)
In reverse.It was actually not at all unusual for aircraft to start out just on the edge of enough engine power, but due to the dance between manufacturer and military, not yet equipped with all the 'stuff' needed for actual combat...and by the time that stuff was put in the plane became too heavy for the engine or the airframe. In the case of the P-40, my point was simply that the issue was the engine not the airframe.
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The issue was not the engine, it was the airframe/service load.
Please compare the Allison to the Merlin 45. You could drop a Merlin 45 into a P-40 with not a lot of change in performance until you get to around 18,000ft. You could drop an Allison into a Spitfire MK V and if you allow over boosting probably get similar performance up until about 18,000ft.
The Allison is about 3.6% bigger in displacement and uses about 10% more compression so at the same rpm and boost pressure it should make a bit more power.
from this test : Spitfire F. Mk.VB Climb and level speed performance
we can see that a Spitfire V with a cropped impeller Merlin 50 engine could hold 6lbs boost (42in ) to 16,000ft with the RAM supplied by climb speed. At max level speed it could hold 6.2 pounds to 18,000ft. it can only hold 18lbs/66in (18.2 in the test airplane) to 3800ft when climbing so it isn't that different from an Allison with 8.80 supercharger gears.
Well I guess it depends on your definition of low altitude. The P-40F (also made in 1941) and L had a Merlin 28, essentially Merlin XX, and a critical altitude of about 20,000 ft. Which is considered low - certainly not high enough for escorting B-17s. According to this page Merlin 45 had 1,515 hp at 11,000 ft and 1,210 hp with +3 boost at 18,000 ft which sounds kind of similar. Is it wrong?
A while back I think I posted a bunch of data from Shores MAW Volume III in one of the air battles a Spit IV PR blundered into a dogfight between P-40s and Bf 109s and got shot down by the latter, I think it's in the p-40 vs. 109 thread which I believe you also posted to.
List of Rolls-Royce Merlin variants - Wikipedia
Merlin 45M 1,230 hp (917 kW) at 3,000 rpm 1,585 hp (1,182 kW) at 3,000 rpm, +18 psi (124 kPa) boost, 2,750 ft (838 m) Spitfire LF Mk.V Version of Merlin 45 with "cropped" (smaller diameter) supercharger impeller allowing greater boost at low altitudes.
Well I guess it depends on your definition of low altitude. The P-40F (also made in 1941) and L had a Merlin 28, essentially Merlin XX, and a critical altitude of about 20,000 ft. Which is considered low - certainly not high enough for escorting B-17s. According to this page Merlin 45 had 1,515 hp at 11,000 ft and 1,210 hp with +3 boost at 18,000 ft which sounds kind of similar. Is it wrong?
This is from the wiki:
List of Rolls-Royce Merlin variants - Wikipedia
Merlin 45M 1,230 hp (917 kW) at 3,000 rpm 1,585 hp (1,182 kW) at 3,000 rpm, +18 psi (124 kPa) boost, 2,750 ft (838 m) Spitfire LF Mk.V Version of Merlin 45 with "cropped" (smaller diameter) supercharger impeller allowing greater boost at low altitudes.
Yeah but you have to find somewhere to stick the intercooler for the Merlin 61 (or two stage V-1710) that doesn't use up a fair amount of the power in extra dragWelcome back
Now to the point - with P-40, it was very much about engine, too. In 1941-late 1942, Merlin 45 vs. V-1710-33 or -39 means at least 25% extra power for no gain in weight. For example, at 15000 ft, it is 1030 HP vs. 1300+. No ram.
Come late 1942, Spitfire gets Merlin 61, P-40 gets an improved V-1710 - no contest at all, Spitfire's engine has more power at 25000 ft than P-40s at 15000 ft.
The cropped impeller engines gained power in three ways. It took less power to turn the impeller to get the same boost at low altitudes. The intake air was heated less (meaning it was denser at the same pressure.) and because of the cooler intake temperature more boost could be used before hitting the detonation limit.
Both Tempest and Typhoon were far better than P-40 at any altitude.
Soviet fighters being good just at low altitude was a bug, not a feature. Ditto for their performance and range. MiG-3 was too ligthly armed by Soviet standards, used the engine produced at factories that were also supplying the Il-2 needs, the cockpit was so bad that pilots preferred to fly with open cockpit (hence killing lots of speed).
In 1942, Zeroes were far better hi-alt fighters than P-40s, and Japan produced other fighters that were not Zeroes. Hurricane was a draggy affair, engine was able to help just that much.
There was a purpose.
Please note that 1st and foremost people were trying to introduce 'all-altitude' fighters, and, once that was sattisfied, they introduced specific fighters for high altitudes and low altitudes. Unfortunately, there was no 'HF' P-40s or P-39s, due to V-1710 being about as good as Merlin 45M, altitude-wise.
In reverse.
"They were using external fuel tanks on P-40E from early on. Not sure about the D but a lot of the D models only had four guns."
ALL of the Ds had 4 guns, but according to some sources there were only about 30 Ds (or 30 built for the US) built before the contracts were amended to E models so the point is rather moot.
I love the bit about tinkering the engines. Nobody ever says what was done. You can't do much with the timing. Allison ignition timing was fixed, there was no variable advance.
Saying that early P-40Es could have been over boosted like the P-40Ks were given the different crankshaft and possibly different fuels is pushing things.
Taking weight out helped but please look at the factory strippers. The Early P-40L and the Early P-40N. the chances of any squadron mechanics getting a P-40 pf any type down st.
1/2 fuel mans what? 100 US gallons if you count the drop tank? 74 US gallons if you don't ? 60 US gallons (50 imp gallons) if it is 1/2 the "book" combat fuel load?
A P-40E was going to use over 40 US gallons just starting, taking off and climbing to 20,000ft. Figure another 8-13 gallons to make it to 25,000ft.
In combat the engine might use 1 to 1/2 gallons a minute at high altitude. (much more at lower altitudes).
Sorry, gliding back to the airfield after an intercept doesn't sound like that great of an idea. Reduced fuel yes but 1/2???
They were were overboosted but squadron records don't seem to show the failure rate. And the failure rate has to take into account the availability rate (number of planes grounded with metal bits in the oil waiting for an engine change) and not just the number of crashes due to engine failure. How many minutes/hours at how much over boost before engine failure?
compounded by the crappy operating conditions. does the crankshaft fail from fatigue before or after the engine bearings are wrecked by sand/grit in the oil?
There was no "dance" between the manufactures and the military. In 1939-40 there was a change in what was required in military aircraft in many countries. Curtiss lost over $14,000 when the 2nd XP-46
20,000ft is what would have been considered mid-altitudes.
The advantage a higher critical altitude engine is maintained at altitudes above that critical altitude, if not widening the gap.
+3psi boost would be a cruising setting.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Aircraft_Engines_of_the_World_Rolls-Royce_Merlin.pdf
This shows the 45 as having:
1,185hp @ 3,000rpm for take-off, +12psi boost
1,515hp @ 3,000rpm @ 11,000ft, presumably at +12psi boost
1,200hp @ 2,850rpm @ 16,000ft - probably a +9psi boost (rated power)
1,060hp @ 2,650rpm @ 14,500ft - cruising.
The Spitfire inability to escort the B-17s was not because of altitude performance, but because of range.
At 30,000ft the Spitfire V with Merlin 45 could still do ~340mph TAS.
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Spitfire_V_Level_Speed_RAE.jpg
Well to be clear, I was talking about MAW IV which is May 43 to Sept 44, and certainly the air to air casualties went down as the flak casualites went way up in 1944 which you can see in the Air Force journal records.
If there is a difference, and I'm not sure there is, it may boil down to how things like air to air collisions, engine failure etc. are counted.
But I agree the month analysis would be good to do, it may take a while though it's very busy lots of fighting with numerous claims and losses on both sides. A lot of transcribing.
Yeah but you have to find somewhere to stick the intercooler for the Merlin 61 (or two stage V-1710) that doesn't use up a fair amount of the power in extra drag
Plus you have several hundred pounds of extra engine weight.
Hooker certainly pushed the Merlin engine into a new catagory with both the new single stage and two stage superchargers.
Once again you are missing my point. Tempest wasn't introduced to combat until 1944 so I would hope it would be better than a P-40 introduced in 1941. Typhoon I'm not so sure but I don't care enough to argue that point!
I don't think you understand the Soviet battlefield then. I'm sure in theory the Soviets would have welcomed the technology of the two stage supercharger, and they were eventually given Spitfire Mk IX's so they did undoubtedly have it. But why spend the extra steel, the rare materials, and added weight for an aircraft to fly 3 miles above the cloud ceiling over the actual battlefield?
Much later, after the end of the war was a foregone conclusion, they experimented with high altitude fighters probably mainly in case the Americans decided to start sending heavy bombers into Russia in a continuation of the war, and to catch the occasional Ju 86..
In my opinion, later war Soviet fighters were perfectly adapted to the conditions they were needed for. Soviet planes were required to be small, cheap (especially in metals), simple to fly and agile enough to cover the front. They needed to protect the Sturmoviks that destroyed the panzers, and destroy the stukas, the jabos and the Hs 129s. The Germans weren't sending four engine heavy bombers to bomb the Russians and the Russians weren't sending any into Germany. The battle was at the front line.
That's why even the Spit IXs they got were relegated to PVO duties behind the lines. Important work no doubt, but not war-winning work for that Theater.
And that is why the Yak 3 and La 5 FN are widely considered two of the best fighters of the war certainly both better than P-40s, but more importantly, better than Bf 109s and Fw 1980s for where they fought, which was all that mattered... even though they were pretty much useless at 28,000'.
In the long run, there didn't need to be. P-40s defeated the Zeros and the Hayabusas at Port Morseby, and Milne Bay, and above the Kokoda Trail, and over the Solomons. They drove them away from the cargo planes flying over the Hump in the Himalayas and along the Burma Road. They defeated them over their own armies in China and helped turn the tide of that land war. That is what really matered.
Intercooler can go in the wing, the XP-40 housed it's radiators there. Several hunderds pounds of extra weight was easily accomodated by Spitfire, Fw 190, P-51 and Bf 109 when new engines were added, the trade off was worth it.
The XP-40 had the radiator under the rear fuselage, but it was moved forward under the nose when it was found to not work very well.
I love the bit about tinkering the engines. Nobody ever says what was done. You can't do much with the timing..You can change the jets in the carburetor...etc.
Working on supercharged aircraft engines is a lot different than working on a 1940s Chevy six or Ford Flat head V-8.