Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
Has there been enagements between P-51D and Ki-84 during the pacific war?
Ki-84 vs P-51 engagemants 1945
- Thread starter Jerrybandit67
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Mike Williams
Senior Airman
- 572
- Oct 19, 2006
Franks were claimed, see attached for example:
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Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
were any p-51s lost to ki-84?
Here are some encounters I know about:
I have one during 1944 too:
On 4 October 1944, Captain Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu, commander of the 2nd Chutai of the 85th Sentai, based at Canton, shot down the two P-51B Mustangs of the 23rd Group's 76th Squadron flown by Henry Leisses and Rex B Shull over Wuchow.
Here are ones during 1945:
On 28 July 1945, a large group of P-51D Mustangs appeared over Ozuki on a fighter sweep. The Ki-84s of the 47th Dokoritsu Hiko Chutai were caught during take-off and suffered heavy losses. Eight Ki-84s were destroyed, and six pilots perished. Among the fallen were all the Chutai commanders: Captain Ohmori, Captain Matsuzaki and Captain Hatano. This is not an accurate assessment of Ki-84s vs P-51s however as the Ki-84s were caught during take off and suffered from speed and altitude disadvantage.
On 14 August 1945 at noon, eight Ki-84s of the 47th Sentai commanded by Lieutenant Oishi managed to jump a section of P-51Ds that were reconnoitring over the Bungo Strait. The Japanese reported five aerial victories for the loss of Warrant Officer Nakamura. The Japanese only destroyed one P-51 that being the P-51D-20 of 40FS, 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who was shot down and crashed near Kyushu. This shows that the encounter was very even as the Ki-84s and P-51s both shot down one of each other.
I have one during 1944 too:
On 4 October 1944, Captain Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu, commander of the 2nd Chutai of the 85th Sentai, based at Canton, shot down the two P-51B Mustangs of the 23rd Group's 76th Squadron flown by Henry Leisses and Rex B Shull over Wuchow.
Here are ones during 1945:
On 28 July 1945, a large group of P-51D Mustangs appeared over Ozuki on a fighter sweep. The Ki-84s of the 47th Dokoritsu Hiko Chutai were caught during take-off and suffered heavy losses. Eight Ki-84s were destroyed, and six pilots perished. Among the fallen were all the Chutai commanders: Captain Ohmori, Captain Matsuzaki and Captain Hatano. This is not an accurate assessment of Ki-84s vs P-51s however as the Ki-84s were caught during take off and suffered from speed and altitude disadvantage.
On 14 August 1945 at noon, eight Ki-84s of the 47th Sentai commanded by Lieutenant Oishi managed to jump a section of P-51Ds that were reconnoitring over the Bungo Strait. The Japanese reported five aerial victories for the loss of Warrant Officer Nakamura. The Japanese only destroyed one P-51 that being the P-51D-20 of 40FS, 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who was shot down and crashed near Kyushu. This shows that the encounter was very even as the Ki-84s and P-51s both shot down one of each other.
Also, I think Capt Burman was shot down by ground fire. Failed to Return (FTR) strafing mission off Kyushu, Japan in P-51D 44-63335 fatally hit by ground fire and crashed into water. Killed in Action (KIA). 14-Aug-45. MACR 15701.
The plane that was shot down by the 47th was probably P-47N, 44-88118, 507FG, 465 FS, flown by Lt. William McDaniel. He was executed by the Japanese.
The plane that was shot down by the 47th was probably P-47N, 44-88118, 507FG, 465 FS, flown by Lt. William McDaniel. He was executed by the Japanese.
While Ki-84s and Ki-44s were involved on 4 October 1944, I haven't found any victory claims made by the Ki-44s so the only aircraft that scored victories was the Ki-84. (As far as I know)
What you mentioned about Charles Burman is interesting because if he was attacking ground targets near Kyushu, then he was probably shot down by the Ki-100 of Naoyuki Ogata. Ogata claimed a P-51D on the 14 August 1945 over Ashiya Airfield. Ashiya airfield is right on the northern tip of Kyushu and crucially, next to water. This means that Burman would have been attacking Ashiya airfield and was shot down and crashed in water. Considering how many times I've seen aircraft being reported as shot down by AAA when in fact they were shot down by aircraft, it's reasonable to assume he was shot down by Ogata.
William McDaniel's P-47's crash location was the Keijo region in South Korea so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th sentai but rather he was shot down by 22nd or 85th sentai Ki-84s
The P-51 shot down by the 47th sentai Ki-84s was probably the P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg
What you mentioned about Charles Burman is interesting because if he was attacking ground targets near Kyushu, then he was probably shot down by the Ki-100 of Naoyuki Ogata. Ogata claimed a P-51D on the 14 August 1945 over Ashiya Airfield. Ashiya airfield is right on the northern tip of Kyushu and crucially, next to water. This means that Burman would have been attacking Ashiya airfield and was shot down and crashed in water. Considering how many times I've seen aircraft being reported as shot down by AAA when in fact they were shot down by aircraft, it's reasonable to assume he was shot down by Ogata.
William McDaniel's P-47's crash location was the Keijo region in South Korea so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th sentai but rather he was shot down by 22nd or 85th sentai Ki-84s
The P-51 shot down by the 47th sentai Ki-84s was probably the P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg
- Thread starter
- #9
Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
I heard about a ki-84 Ace pilot Tomojiro Ogawa
Where he shot down 5 P-51s and 4 thunderbolts
Alright, here's a quote from " Ki-44 Tojo Aces of WWII" by Nicholas Millman: ", pg 43. "At the end of September [1944], the 85th Sentai received the first six examples of the Ki-84 to be allocated to the unit and it would begin flying combat sorties from October 4...On that date Wakamatsu led a mixed force of four Ki-84s and four Ki-44s into combat against Mustangs over Wuchow. Wakamatsu claimed one P-51 shot down while his wingmen ...also claimed a Mustang each."
The other quote is from a Japanese Web site:
August 14, 1944P-47(507FG, 465 FS) was attacked by 2 Japanese fighters (Hien?) and was afire while patrolling along the coast of Kyushu and crashed into the sea. 2nd Lt. William McDaniel bailed out and was taken prisoner. He was sent to Seibu A/D HQ in Fukoka and was executed by beheading at Aburayama on the following day"
Kyushus, although close to Korea, is not South Korea.
The other quote is from a Japanese Web site:
August 14, 1944P-47(507FG, 465 FS) was attacked by 2 Japanese fighters (Hien?) and was afire while patrolling along the coast of Kyushu and crashed into the sea. 2nd Lt. William McDaniel bailed out and was taken prisoner. He was sent to Seibu A/D HQ in Fukoka and was executed by beheading at Aburayama on the following day"
Kyushus, although close to Korea, is not South Korea.
That is Aug 1945 not 1944.
507th FG didn't form until Oct 1944. It deployed to Ie Shima (small island off Okinawa) with P-47N in June 1945, flying its first combat mission on 1 July. From Ie Shima, they flew missions over southern Japan (Kyushu), mainland China and Korea.
On 4 October 1944, four Ki-84s and four Ki-44s of the 85th Sentai attacked P-51B Mustangs of the 76FS 23FG and claimed five shot down. The claims were made by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo both of whom were flying Ki-84s meaning this encounter had Ki-84s shooting down P-51s.
I made a mistake on my earlier post when I said that William McDaniel was shot down by 22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s over Korea on 14 August. The Ki-84s of the 22nd and 85th Sentai actually fought against the P-47Ns over Korea on the 13 August 1945 so one day earlier.
On 13 August 1945 over Korea, the 22nd and 85th Sentai Ki-84s actually shot down the P-47N flown by Lt. Dallas Yeargain who crashed at Kaijo South Korea. The P-47N could not have been McDaniel's as I originally thought since McDaniel was shot down a day later. For Yeargain's loss his loss report says he went missing on 13 August 1945, after he "made a head on pass at an 'Oscar' and was hit in the oil lines." There were no Oscars in the battle that day but Ki-84 'Franks' were.
McDaniel's loss report says he went missing on 14 August 1945. On this day he was last seen on fire and in a dive being chased by two 'Tojos'. The location of his loss is "37 degrees 20 min N, 126 degrees 40 min E". This location is Jeongwang-dong near Seoul so I can't see how he was the victim of the 47th Sentai since they fought over the Bungo Strait which is very far from McDaniel's offically reported crash location.
I also looked at Charles Burman's P-51 loss location and it says he crashed in water in the Bungo Strait. This location matches the 47th Sentai battle perfectly so the 47th shot him down.
On 14 August 1945, P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg's crash location of Futagawa is too far from the Bungo Strait so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th DHC. Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai fought a battle over Lake Biwa to the north of Kyoto with American "P-47s". It seems likely that Schlamberg's P-51 was shot down by the Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai since Futagowa is fairly close to Lake Biwa and the Japanese mistook the P-51s for P-47s.
Final Conclusions:
4 October 1944:
85th Sentai Ki-84s flown by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo shoot down 2 P-51Bs of 76FS 23FG over Wuchow.
13 August 1945:
22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-47N of 507FG flown by Dallas Yeargain over Keijo, Korea
14 August 1945:
47th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 40FS 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who crashed in the Bungo Strait.
246th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg who crashed at Futagawa not too far from Lake Biwa.
As for the P-47N flown by William McDaniel who was shot down by two 'Tojos' and crashed at Jeongwang-dong, I really can't say for definite who shot him down. It's possible he was shot down by the Ki-100 of the 59th Sentai flown by Naoyuki Ogata who claimed a P-51D over Ashiya airfield. However, due to the big distance between Ashiya and Jeongwang-dong I highly doubt this is the case.
Do you mind sending me a link to that Japanese website you mentioned here? I'm interested to see what else it says.
I made a mistake on my earlier post when I said that William McDaniel was shot down by 22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s over Korea on 14 August. The Ki-84s of the 22nd and 85th Sentai actually fought against the P-47Ns over Korea on the 13 August 1945 so one day earlier.
On 13 August 1945 over Korea, the 22nd and 85th Sentai Ki-84s actually shot down the P-47N flown by Lt. Dallas Yeargain who crashed at Kaijo South Korea. The P-47N could not have been McDaniel's as I originally thought since McDaniel was shot down a day later. For Yeargain's loss his loss report says he went missing on 13 August 1945, after he "made a head on pass at an 'Oscar' and was hit in the oil lines." There were no Oscars in the battle that day but Ki-84 'Franks' were.
McDaniel's loss report says he went missing on 14 August 1945. On this day he was last seen on fire and in a dive being chased by two 'Tojos'. The location of his loss is "37 degrees 20 min N, 126 degrees 40 min E". This location is Jeongwang-dong near Seoul so I can't see how he was the victim of the 47th Sentai since they fought over the Bungo Strait which is very far from McDaniel's offically reported crash location.
I also looked at Charles Burman's P-51 loss location and it says he crashed in water in the Bungo Strait. This location matches the 47th Sentai battle perfectly so the 47th shot him down.
On 14 August 1945, P-51D-20 of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg's crash location of Futagawa is too far from the Bungo Strait so he couldn't have been shot down by the 47th DHC. Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai fought a battle over Lake Biwa to the north of Kyoto with American "P-47s". It seems likely that Schlamberg's P-51 was shot down by the Ki-84s of the 246th Sentai since Futagowa is fairly close to Lake Biwa and the Japanese mistook the P-51s for P-47s.
Final Conclusions:
4 October 1944:
85th Sentai Ki-84s flown by Tai-i. Yukiyoshi Wakamatsu and Gunso. Misao Okubo shoot down 2 P-51Bs of 76FS 23FG over Wuchow.
13 August 1945:
22nd or 85th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-47N of 507FG flown by Dallas Yeargain over Keijo, Korea
14 August 1945:
47th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 40FS 35FG flown by Charles L Burman who crashed in the Bungo Strait.
246th Sentai Ki-84s shoot down P-51D of 78FS 15FG flown by Philip Schlamberg who crashed at Futagawa not too far from Lake Biwa.
As for the P-47N flown by William McDaniel who was shot down by two 'Tojos' and crashed at Jeongwang-dong, I really can't say for definite who shot him down. It's possible he was shot down by the Ki-100 of the 59th Sentai flown by Naoyuki Ogata who claimed a P-51D over Ashiya airfield. However, due to the big distance between Ashiya and Jeongwang-dong I highly doubt this is the case.
Do you mind sending me a link to that Japanese website you mentioned here? I'm interested to see what else it says.
- Thread starter
- #13
Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
were there P-51D losses by N1K1s in 1945?
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Yes
On 8 July 1945 16 N1K1s of the Tsukuba Kokutai fought against 20 P-51Ds near Tokyo. The N1K1s claimed three P-51s shot down and two P-51s were lost after they were shot down near Hyakurigahara naval base
I have one for the N1K2 as well. On 12 April 1945 Yokosuka Kokutai N1K2s and 302nd Kokutai J2Ms as well as IJAAF force aircraft intercepted B-29s and P-51Ds over Tokyo. Famous ace Kaneyoshi Muto who was flying an N1K2 of the Yokosuka kokutai (probably with the tail code with the backwards "E" and 104) was credited with a P-51. His victim was probably the P-51 flown by Gordon A Christoe who was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter.
On 8 July 1945 16 N1K1s of the Tsukuba Kokutai fought against 20 P-51Ds near Tokyo. The N1K1s claimed three P-51s shot down and two P-51s were lost after they were shot down near Hyakurigahara naval base
I have one for the N1K2 as well. On 12 April 1945 Yokosuka Kokutai N1K2s and 302nd Kokutai J2Ms as well as IJAAF force aircraft intercepted B-29s and P-51Ds over Tokyo. Famous ace Kaneyoshi Muto who was flying an N1K2 of the Yokosuka kokutai (probably with the tail code with the backwards "E" and 104) was credited with a P-51. His victim was probably the P-51 flown by Gordon A Christoe who was last seen being attacked by an enemy fighter.
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Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
found the japanese wikipedia article about the n1k1 vs p-51D duel, on 8 july 1945 P-51Ds were strafing hyakurigahara airfield they were intercepted by N1K1-Jb's 4 were shot down (only Robert Carr was claimed reported shot down by a japanese zeke)
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The US lost two P-51Ds over Hyakurigahara this day. Both shot down by Tsukuba Kokutai N1K1s.
Jul. 8, 1945, P-51 (506FG, 458SQ) was shot down in Hatada, Singu-mura (present Hokoda-cho), Kashima-gun, Ibaraki-ken, while attacking Hyakurigahara Naval Airbase.
1/Lt. Robert CARR was killed and his body was buried near the crash site.
Jul. 8, 1945, P-51 (#44-73634, 15FG, 45SQ) crashed between Iwo Island and Hyakurigahara Naval Airbase, Yamano, Tachibana-mura (present Ogawa-cho), Higashi-Ibaraki-gun, Ibaraki-ken.
Capt. Albert W. SHERREN was killed.
Here are Tsukuba Kokutai claims on this day (translated from Japanese website)
July 8, 1945
"Kanto Region P-51 Fighter Attack Battle"
Morning: P-51 fighters were spotted firing at Hyakurihara Air Base at an altitude of 500-1,000 meters, and the First Division immediately launched an attack.
After providing aerial support, the Fourth Division attacked the rearmost formation of about 100 P-51 fighters at an altitude of 500 meters in the sea northeast of Inubo Cape.
[Commander in Chief]
Captain Ishizaka Mitsuo
[Composition]
16 Shiden 11-type Otsu planes [4 of which turned back]
1st Company, 1st Platoon, 1st District [Fighter 403]
First Plane: Captain Ishizaka Mitsuo * Shot down: 1 P-51 fighter plane, hit 29 times, crash-landed at Tsukuba base/heavily damaged, injured
Second Plane: Flight Sergeant Nakayama Mitsuo
Third Plane: First Sergeant Asakura Mitsuo * Shot down: 3 P-51 fighter planes, downed, killed in action
Fourth Plane: Shinohara Kazuichi, turned back due to engine malfunction
Second District
First Plane
Second Plane
Third Plane
Fourth Plane
Second Platoon, 3rd District
First Plane
Second Plane
Third Plane
Fourth Plane
Fourth District [Fighter 402]
First Plane: Captain Sato Ryoichi
Second Plane: Lieutenant Kimura Keizaburo * Shot down: 1 P-51 fighter
Third plane
Fourth plane
[Achievements]
Shot down: 4 P-51 fighter planes?
[Damage]
Losses: 2 Shiden 11s [1 self-destructed/1 destroyed on the ground] 1 killed, 1 seriously injured
[Casualties]
Asakura Mitsuo, Senior Flight Sergeant (10th Class), 403rd Class * Shot down 3 P-51 fighter planes over Tsukuba, then caught fire and self-destructed.
[Injured]
Ishizaka Mitsuo, Captain (70th Class), 403rd Class/Squad Leader
This means the P-51s were shot down by N1K1 Otsus flown by
Ishizaka Mitsuo
Asakura Mitsuo
Kimura Keizaburo
『筑波海軍航空隊③』
筑波海軍航空隊③昭和２０年３月１日付第十航空艦隊が編成され、これに練習航空隊で戦闘機の実用機教程を担当していた、筑波海軍航空隊・谷田部海軍航空隊・大村海軍航空…
Here is the Tsukuba Kokutai combat log for the day
Go to page 5/13
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- Thread starter
- #17
Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
Sherren-s P-51 was i think claimed by an J2m3The US lost two P-51Ds over Hyakurigahara this day. Both shot down by Tsukuba Kokutai N1K1s.
Jul. 8, 1945, P-51 (506FG, 458SQ) was shot down in Hatada, Singu-mura (present Hokoda-cho), Kashima-gun, Ibaraki-ken, while attacking Hyakurigahara Naval Airbase.
1/Lt. Robert CARR was killed and his body was buried near the crash site.
Jul. 8, 1945, P-51 (#44-73634, 15FG, 45SQ) crashed between Iwo Island and Hyakurigahara Naval Airbase, Yamano, Tachibana-mura (present Ogawa-cho), Higashi-Ibaraki-gun, Ibaraki-ken.
Capt. Albert W. SHERREN was killed.
Here are Tsukuba Kokutai claims on this day (translated from Japanese website)
July 8, 1945
"Kanto Region P-51 Fighter Attack Battle"
Morning: P-51 fighters were spotted firing at Hyakurihara Air Base at an altitude of 500-1,000 meters, and the First Division immediately launched an attack.
After providing aerial support, the Fourth Division attacked the rearmost formation of about 100 P-51 fighters at an altitude of 500 meters in the sea northeast of Inubo Cape.
[Commander in Chief]
Captain Ishizaka Mitsuo
[Composition]
16 Shiden 11-type Otsu planes [4 of which turned back]
1st Company, 1st Platoon, 1st District [Fighter 403]
First Plane: Captain Ishizaka Mitsuo * Shot down: 1 P-51 fighter plane, hit 29 times, crash-landed at Tsukuba base/heavily damaged, injured
Second Plane: Flight Sergeant Nakayama Mitsuo
Third Plane: First Sergeant Asakura Mitsuo * Shot down: 3 P-51 fighter planes, downed, killed in action
Fourth Plane: Shinohara Kazuichi, turned back due to engine malfunction
Second District
First Plane
Second Plane
Third Plane
Fourth Plane
Second Platoon, 3rd District
First Plane
Second Plane
Third Plane
Fourth Plane
Fourth District [Fighter 402]
First Plane: Captain Sato Ryoichi
Second Plane: Lieutenant Kimura Keizaburo * Shot down: 1 P-51 fighter
Third plane
Fourth plane
[Achievements]
Shot down: 4 P-51 fighter planes?
[Damage]
Losses: 2 Shiden 11s [1 self-destructed/1 destroyed on the ground] 1 killed, 1 seriously injured
[Casualties]
Asakura Mitsuo, Senior Flight Sergeant (10th Class), 403rd Class * Shot down 3 P-51 fighter planes over Tsukuba, then caught fire and self-destructed.
[Injured]
Ishizaka Mitsuo, Captain (70th Class), 403rd Class/Squad Leader
This means the P-51s were shot down by N1K1 Otsus flown by
Ishizaka Mitsuo
Asakura Mitsuo
Kimura Keizaburo
『筑波海軍航空隊③』
筑波海軍航空隊③昭和２０年３月１日付第十航空艦隊が編成され、これに練習航空隊で戦闘機の実用機教程を担当していた、筑波海軍航空隊・谷田部海軍航空隊・大村海軍航空…ameblo.jp
Here is the Tsukuba Kokutai combat log for the day
Go to page 5/13
It can't be claimed by J2M3s because the 302 Kokutai which had J2M3s did not make any claims on July 8. They also fought over Atsugi and not Hyakurigahara so they can't shoot down Albert Sherren or Robert Carr since they were shot down at Hyakurigahara.
July 8, 1945
"Intercepting P-51 Fighters Over Atsugi Air Base"
Around 11:00, an alarm was issued saying "Enemy fighters invading from the Odawara area."
150 P-51 fighters attacked the Ibaraki, Chiba, and Keihin areas.
Four Raiden planes took off for an aerial evacuation.
During takeoff, they were attacked by P-51 fighters.
[Formation]
Four Raiden planes
First plane
Second plane
Third plane
Fourth plane: Sergeant Kaneda Masashi, hit and injured. Immediately after takeoff, they fired their machine guns at the P-51 formation, collided, hit and made an emergency landing.
[Damage]
Unknown
[Injured]
Sergeant Kaneda Masashi (11th Class Kohi), First Squadron "Raiden Squadron"
『第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９）』
第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９） 昭和２０年７月第一飛行隊・第二分隊長：伊藤 進大尉〔三〇二空在隊中の戦果／撃墜５機、撃破２機〕、分隊士：栗坂伸三中尉、村上上…
- Thread starter
- #19
Jerrybandit67
Airman
- 30
- Mar 11, 2024
anyways about scanlans P-51 , on june 23 1945, according to japanese sources a fighter from hyakuri airbase intercepted and shot down 44-72650 from 15th FG 47th FS over chosi point, chiba prefectureIt can't be claimed by J2M3s because the 302 Kokutai which had J2M3s did not make any claims on July 8. They also fought over Atsugi and not Hyakurigahara so they can't shoot down Albert Sherren or Robert Carr since they were shot down at Hyakurigahara.
July 8, 1945
"Intercepting P-51 Fighters Over Atsugi Air Base"
Around 11:00, an alarm was issued saying "Enemy fighters invading from the Odawara area."
150 P-51 fighters attacked the Ibaraki, Chiba, and Keihin areas.
Four Raiden planes took off for an aerial evacuation.
During takeoff, they were attacked by P-51 fighters.
[Formation]
Four Raiden planes
First plane
Second plane
Third plane
Fourth plane: Sergeant Kaneda Masashi, hit and injured. Immediately after takeoff, they fired their machine guns at the P-51 formation, collided, hit and made an emergency landing.
[Damage]
Unknown
[Injured]
Sergeant Kaneda Masashi (11th Class Kohi), First Squadron "Raiden Squadron"
『第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９）』
第三〇二海軍航空隊 （１９） 昭和２０年７月第一飛行隊・第二分隊長：伊藤 進大尉〔三〇二空在隊中の戦果／撃墜５機、撃破２機〕、分隊士：栗坂伸三中尉、村上上…
the US confirmed that 44-72650 was shot down by an japanese zero (or by joe baugher's site, an N1K1)
Check the Bf-109K-4 Victories thread for my information about Scanlan's victor.
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