michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
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There were at least 3 RAAF units still flying P40s out of the northern tip of Italy on VE day. The 450th the " desert harassers" is the one I remember off the top of my head but there were at least 2 more and I have read there were a few others but not 100% sure about those. I think Italy qualifies as Europe.I dunno. All this effort on behalf of the P-40 has me starting to think it is overrated.
The P-40 never served in front line units in the ETO, certainly not throughout the war.
P-36s served in the Battle of France, but not after that in the ETO.
The Spitfire was a very near contemporary of the P-36 (first flight less than a year later) and it also served to the end of the war.
And, generally speaking, it didn't seem that the P-40 was ever rated as highly as the Spitfire.
I dunno. All this effort on behalf of the P-40 has me starting to think it is overrated.
But then again the p51 was not as good as a F86 either.
I think the Warhawk is a really under-appreciated fighter. When one considers the design dates back to 1935( the warhawk is still a hawk even after a new type of engine just as much as a fw 190d is still a fw 190 even with a new type of engine or a Mustang is still a Mustang etc.) and that it remained in front line service in all theaters and reasonably effective right up until the end of the war is, I think, truly remarkable. Not" 2nd string" or " noteworthy because its all we had in numbers at the time of our entry into the war"or any of the other disparaging characterizations we often read about it.
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Shortround said:This tells us most of what we need to know about how the USAAF felt about the P-40 with several years left of war ahead.
Fw190 claims Tunisia - Sicily, Nov 8 1942 to May 13 1943
Spitfire - 73
P-38 - 41
P40 - 28
These were the major types claimed.
Fw190 losses, date/location per previous post
<5% - 110
5-30% - 30
31-60% - 70
61-100% - 121
Source: Focke-Wulf in North Africa
More Luftwaffe claims for most theaters, http://don-caldwell.we.bs/jg26/claims/tonywood.htm
The Luftwaffe used a % damaged. Over 60% was a write off. The Brits used a Category - A, B, C, D, E.
Fw190 claims Tunisia - Sicily, Nov 8 1942 to May 13 1943
Spitfire - 73
P-38 - 41
P40 - 28
These were the major types claimed.
If I understand correctly, these are Fw 190s claimed shot down by Allied fighters?
Not Allied fightes claimed by Fw 190 pilots?
I ask because, to me, the way it is worded isn't clear.
Considering the next post was about how the Germans classified Fw 190 losses and damages, I think it is the claims of Fw 190s shot down by Allied fighters.
If it was Allied fighters shot down by Fw 190s, there could be some bias in the claims towards the Spitfire over the P-40, in the same way that Hurricanes shot down in the BoB were often claimed as Spitfires.
I dunno. All this effort on behalf of the P-40 has me starting to think it is overrated.
The P-40 never served in front line units in the ETO, certainly not throughout the war.
P-36s served in the Battle of France, but not after that in the ETO.
The Spitfire was a very near contemporary of the P-36 (first flight less than a year later) and it also served to the end of the war.
And, generally speaking, it didn't seem that the P-40 was ever rated as highly as the Spitfire.
The Soviets thought the Tomahawk was the equal of the Bf 109F, the Kittyhawk slightly better. Half the top scoring Russian aces flew the Cobra.
That report is one of many which created the postwar legend of the P-40. The USAAF hated the P-40 as you say almost from the beginning of the war. As soon as they learned that enemy planes flew higher and faster, and even more so once the "Bomber Mafia" achieved ascendancy in the service, and Curtiss Aircraft screwed up again and again, they were no longer in favor and neither was the Hawk family of fighters any more. The legend that the P-40 was a 'dud' was firmly in place by 1943 and was heavily reinforced in the postwar Truman Commission hearings when Curtis Aircraft was being investigated.
But lets review the history of how this has evolved for a moment.
The Trope about the p-40 that it was "slow and unmaneuverable" but "rugged and cheap" was created in memos like that. I believed it too, the only exception to the rule in fact was the AVG legend which had it's own inertia. But the two stories dovetailed. The latter made the plane popular (along with it's looks and shark mouth paint) drawing a lot of interest in the fighter which "those in the know" cheerfully debunked. AVG had success, we were told, because the IJA only had Ki 27s to face them.
In 1990 Jeff Ethell reversed his previous opinion in a now famous video in which he described the P-40 as "a pitts with an Allison" and noted that it was much more maneuverable than a P-51 (which he compared to a block of cement in comparison). Up to that point, and for long after it was still conventional wisdom from "experts" that P-40's were sluggish and unmaneuverable.