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Neat, thanks for posting that definitely going to save that document! To clarify I think there are two factors relevant here - first MAW volume IV covers (I think) May 1943 through September 1944. So half of 1943 and most of 1944. If you look at the document you posted AAA is actually the leading cause of fighter losses for 1944 (441 to enemy aircraft, 493 to flak).
The P-40E's main problem was it's combat ceiling was under 20000'. It was at a disadvantage against almost all other first line combat planes due to it's extremely heavy weight compared to it's engine power.Yes, it's basically the same problem faced by Bf 109s against most Allied planes, they could attack from advantage and disengage but couldn't remain in sustained dogfights without increasing risk. Against Spitfires this more or less equaled out, against Soviet fighters at least initially they did very well.
From what I understand US P-40 squadrons in the Pacific and CBI dealt with this by breaking up into flights of four. So for example when attacking bombers, each flight would attack and then disengage when they got into trouble, but then another flight would attack and so on. The first flight to disengage would return to altitude by the time the third or fourth flight was engaging. In this manner they kept the Japanese fighters occupied and were able to maintain steady pressure on the bombers.
They could not use these kinds of tactics in the Med because German fighters, faster, very well coordinated and able to attack from above, could gang up on them. So in the Med they kept to large flights, whole squadrons of ~12 aircraft basically. Fortunately for the Allies in that Theater German bombers mostly operated at low or medium altitude because they couldn't really hit anything that mattered from ~20,000 ft.
Interestingly according to Australian pilots that served in both Theaters, while they were able to use their radios freely in the Pacific they had to be much more circumspect and disciplined about using them in the Med because Germans were able to determine their position.
Well this is another argument isn't it? With the possible exception of the Ploesti raid I would argue that the heavy bomber raids were basically an attritional Strategy and did not play a significant role in any of the key turning points or battles of the war - especially before 1944. At Midway, Guadalcanal, El Alamein, Kasserine Pass, Tobruk, Sicily, Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kharkov etc. it was the tactical bombing and dogfights at low altitude that matttered.
Especially one that was ineffective at escorting heavy bombers.
Well the stripped P-40F and P-40L were pretty close I think up to 20,000 feet. Regardless, I can point to numerous days when they shot down Bf 109s, MC. 202 and MC.205 fighters at rates like 3-1 and a few at 6-1. So the raw performance didn't matter as much as we might think, at least in those battles.
What was the engine before the BMW?
Yes that is P-40Q right? Promising but doomed by the crash of a couple of prototypes and overall (well earned) disfavor of Curtiss Aircraft company. It did look good but it didn't have the range or speed of the P-51 and I think that is what they cared about most at that point.
S
However, many good fighters in WW2 did have a significant flaw or three. Being a medium to low altitude fighter was not necessarily a fatal flaw. In fact we know that almost all the Russian made fighters were low altitude planes, the RAF specifically designed certain versions of the Spitfire to fly at low altitude (LF versions) and fielded the troubled but ultimately successful Typhoon and Tempest series which were basically low altitude birds and so on. It could actually be a useful thing to have for certain Theaters or certain operations.
The P-40E's main problem was it's combat ceiling was under 20000'. It was at a disadvantage against almost all other first line combat planes due to it's extremely heavy weight compared to it's engine power.
The LF versions of the IX and VIII used the Merlin 66, which had the same ratings as the V-1650-7 used in later P-51Bs and P-51Ds. Low altitude was a relative term.
The LF.Vs were, as I understand it, retrospectively given the the LF designation. They were not designed as low altitude fighters, but were modified to be - specifically to combat the Fw 190A.
The XII was a low altitude fighter because it used a single stage Griffon, as those were the only ones available at the time.
Actually the leading cause of fighter losses in 1944 is 'other causes' = 637.
MAW II, III, and IV together cover 1943, but I predict that crunching the numbers in these volumes won't get you a match with the figures from the document, which is from this:
USAAF Statistical Digest .
There were no P-39s at Darwin. While oxygen was a problem with P-400s at Guadalcanal, P-39s did not have that problem. The record of P-400s and P-39s attempting to intercept bombers in New Guinea was poor at best. They were constantly bounced from above by escorting A6Ms. They did not have enough early warning time to get to altitude. AVG and 23rd FG P-40s benefited from adequate early warning as did Darwin P-40s, though perhaps to a lesser extant. P-40s in Java had no such luxury. The use of the P-39 and P-40 is a lesson in how US fighters were thrust into jobs that they were not intended for. They were not interceptors. The P-38 was an interceptor but forced into the high altitude escort role, among others where it did not excel.But that isn't actually true. You didn't understand what you have been reading. Performance, especially climb, fell off starting at 12,000 ' and climb rate was no doubt very bad by 20,000', but that was not the ceiling. They routinely intercepted enemy bombers flying much higher than that. You should read this article which I posted previously, about the use of P-40s in the defense of Darwin. From March to September 1942, Japanese records confirm that novice P-40E pilots from the 49th FG were able to shoot down 12 "Betty" bombers flying at 27,000' in spite of a heavy escort of A6M2s so not only were they able to fly that high, they were fairly effective in combat (albeit with heavy losses of their own) .
Quote from the article:
"Darwin's 3.7-inch anti-aircraft artillery forced the G4Ms to ingress at high levels—generally between 25,000 to 27,000 feet. Such a high ingress altitude sorely tested the P-40E fighters as their Allison V-1710 engines suffered from an inadequate mechanically driven supercharger. The Allison, while rugged and reliable, lost considerable power at the higher altitudes, with the operational ceiling of the P-40E limited to around 27,000 to 28,000 feet."
In fact the only US fighters I'm aware of which were literally unable to attack high flying bombers during the war were P-39s / P-400s' over Guadalcanal and that was apparently due to a lack of suitable oxygen equipment. P-39s were also active at Darwin but I don't know of any stats on their use there, do you?
The Darwin campaign was an early experiment, efficiency got much better. AVG and later 23rd FG etc. were routinely shooting down high flying Japanese bombers all through the war with P-40E, K and later N with minimal and diminishing losses.
S
Why would you predict that? Are you suggesting Shores numbers are off?
I will do some number crunching on one of the months, maybe July or June 1943 and we can see how it adds up. I'll post it in the P-40 vs 109 thread and then link back to here.
Thanks for the PDFActually the leading cause of fighter losses in 1944 is 'other causes' = 637.
MAW II, III, and IV together cover 1943, but I predict that crunching the numbers in these volumes won't get you a match with the figures from the document, which is from this:
USAAF Statistical Digest .
Yes but lets be real the LF Spit Mk V, many regular Spit V, recon Spit IV and various others were using other specifically low altitude optimized Merlin engines like the Merlin 45, 45M, 50, 50M etc. some of which had cropped impellers specifically for low altitude power. For example Merlin 45M had a critical altitude of 2,750 ft (838 m) where it gave 1585 hp. Interestingly this is about the equivalent of the P-40K (which the English liked quite a bit) at normal / sanctioned WEP settings.
The short version of this is that they did perceive a need for low altitude fighters optimized to perform down where the Stukas were dropping their bombs.
I'm not an expert on the Rolls Royce engines, the Merlin or the Spitfire so I'm going mainly off of this:
List of Rolls-Royce Merlin variants - Wikipedia
S
But that isn't actually true. You didn't understand what you have been reading. Performance, especially climb, fell off starting at 12,000 ' and climb rate was no doubt very bad by 20,000', but that was not the ceiling. They routinely intercepted enemy bombers flying much higher than that. You should read this article which I posted previously, about the use of P-40s in the defense of Darwin. From March to September 1942, Japanese records confirm that novice P-40E pilots from the 49th FG were able to shoot down 12 "Betty" bombers flying at 27,000' in spite of a heavy escort of A6M2s so not only were they able to fly that high, they were fairly effective in combat (albeit with heavy losses of their own) .
The Darwin campaign was an early experiment, efficiency got much better. AVG and later 23rd FG etc. were routinely shooting down high flying Japanese bombers all through the war with P-40E, K and later N with minimal and diminishing losses.
Yes but lets be real the LF Spit Mk V, many regular Spit V, recon Spit IV and various others were using other specifically low altitude optimized Merlin engines like the Merlin 45, 45M, 50, 50M etc. some of which had cropped impellers specifically for low altitude power. For example Merlin 45M had a critical altitude of 2,750 ft (838 m) where it gave 1585 hp. Interestingly this is about the equivalent of the P-40K (which the English liked quite a bit) at normal / sanctioned WEP settings.
The short version of this is that they did perceive a need for low altitude fighters optimized to perform down where the Stukas were dropping their bombs.
I'm not an expert on the Rolls Royce engines, the Merlin or the Spitfire so I'm going mainly off of this:
List of Rolls-Royce Merlin variants - Wikipedia
S
The USAAF stats certainly seem to portray a different picture than MAW does, for 1943 at any rate; with some 75% of USAAF fighter losses attributed to enemy aircraft according to the stats, just 11% to flak. As you yourself have remarked, in MAW fighter losses to flak are higher than that. Which numbers are off, I don't know, and I much prefer to think that there is a plausible explanation for why there is such a difference.
I agree on taking a single month or two and comparing the numbers, it's the way to go ; it will be interesting to see how it turns out.
By the time the 'cropped' superchargers were in use, the threat of Stukas was not present. Main threat/target were Fw 190s now (ie. early 1942 on).
The Merlin 45 and 50 were 'normal' versions, with impeller diameter of 10.25 in. The 45M and 50M were the ones with cropped S/C (dia of 9.50 in - same as 'ordinary' V-1710s), so gains in low altitude were traded for loss of hi-alt power.
There were no P-39s at Darwin.
While oxygen was a problem with P-400s at Guadalcanal, P-39s did not have that problem. The record of P-400s and P-39s attempting to intercept bombers in New Guinea was poor at best. They were constantly bounced from above by escorting A6Ms. They did not have enough early warning time to get to altitude. AVG and 23rd FG P-40s benefited from adequate early warning as did Darwin P-40s, though perhaps to a lesser extant. P-40s in Java had no such luxury. The use of the P-39 and P-40 is a lesson in how US fighters were thrust into jobs that they were not intended for. They were not interceptors. The P-38 was an interceptor but forced into the high altitude escort role, among others where it did not excel.
The P-40E was overweight, there is no" if, and or but" about it. The six .50 cal weapons installation was simply too heavy for the engine available. about 900lbs of guns and ammo which is several hundreds more than guns/ammo in a Spitfire V/IX or most of the the 1941-42 single engine fighters. It may be more than the FW 190. it may be triple what some of the Italian and Japanese fighters were carrying for armament.
I would also note that the P-40D/E was initially rated with a combat load of 120 US gallons of gas. You could put an additional 28 US gallons in the rear fuselage tank but you basically had a 8100lb airplane with just that 120 US gallons of fuel and 1150hp engine
Stukas were still in heavy use all through the Med in 1942 and well into 1943 - quite devastating against some of the convoys too. But also used against Allied tanks including at El Alamein and Tobruk and so on right up to the end of the war in Tunisia. Also Ju 88 being used as torpedo bombers and (shallow angle) dive bombers, and various others including Dornier 217 (I think?) being used as carriers for Fritz guided missiles, He 111, SM 79 etc. etc. and Bf 109E and 110 Jabos. All needed to be shot down down low.
In Sicily and Italy the FW 190s were the main Jabos but they too were operating at low altitude. And the Ju 88's were still being sent out frequently (and getting wacked right and left).
My understanding of Merlin 45 and 50 (uncropped) is that they were still lower power rated engines just not as low as the cropped 45M and 50M.
S
The 'ordinary' Spitfire V will have a field day against the listed Axis bombers, no need for low-alt engine. Please note that just a handful of Spitfires was deployed in Med before 1943.
1500++ HP is hardly a sign of low power rated engine.
You seem to be misunderstanding me here or missing my point. Yes the Spit V can have a field day against a Stuka or Ju 88, but they were defended by Bf 109, Mc 202, Mc 205, Re 2002 etc. They also had to catch Fw 190s. Apparently they felt they needed the low altitude versions.
Large numbers of Spitfire Mk V were deployed to North Africa by mid 1942. Five squadrons: 92, 145, 601, 94, and 417 sqns were all flying Spitfires by El Alemein in Oct 42.
Low altitude not low power. 1500 hp at 800 meters. Get it?
Please note that just a handful of Spitfires was deployed in Med before 1943.
Before August of 1942 there was barely a Spitfire in N.A.