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I suggest you read the thread from the beginning and then reconsiderThe P-40 is probably the poster child for under-valued aircraft: it was much better than its post-war press, and, if you compare its overall performance with the contemporary Bf109 variants, it's probably roughly equal, especially at lower altitudes.
To use one of my fathers comments 'Tosh'I thought we were comparing the Hurricane, Yak 1 and the P-40?
I still like the P-40 best, even recognizing its inherent altitude limitations. I think its record could have been better if the pilots flying them in 1941-42 were better trained and used better tactics. In North Africa, the DAF always ceded the high ground to the Germans, and flew antiquated and tactically impractical formations. In the Pacific, most US pilots were fresh out of flight school when they were thrust into combat with veteran Japanese pilots who were masters of their aircraft.
I thought we were comparing the Hurricane, Yak 1 and the P-40?
We are Greg. But to do that you must consider the performance of the opposition. That is the
only way you can determine the worth of what you have. If all the battles were at 7,000 m. then
the P-40 would not even be much of a consideration.
I still like the P-40 best, even recognizing its inherent altitude limitations.
Of the three and considering all the combat would be at low and medium altitudes, the P-40
would be my first choice also. I still want a Spitfire though.
I think its record could have been better if the pilots flying them in 1941-42 were better trained and used better tactics.
That is a statement that would apply to ever aircraft in every corner of every theater of the war
at any given moment in time.
In North Africa, the DAF always ceded the high ground to the Germans,
The Desert Air Force ceded (gave up) nothing to the Germans. The Bf 109 had a much higher
combat altitude than the P-40 or Hurricane and that is just the way it was and the DAF just
had to deal with it.
Hey all, I've been away for a bit but I am still invested and interested in this discussion. As I collect evidence to make my case, I was wondering, does anyone have specific numbers and resources on P-40 A-A victories in the MTO vs losses? I remember seeing fromore somewhere around 800 aircraft shot down via P-40s, but I cannot confirm that.
According to U.S. Army Air Force Resource Center - A Warbirds Resource Group Site, US P-40 (Warhawk variant) achieved 2:1 kill ratio in the Med, but didn't specify how this was calculated.
As I've said elsewhere: the P-40 was better than its post-war reputation. While it wasn't a world-beater, it was maneuverable, robust, and, reputedly, had sweet handling. With inexperienced pilots, that last seems to be a virtue that is frequently deprecated, as an inexperienced pilot will be able to get more performance out of a aircraft with better handling than he would in one with nominally better performance but more challenging handling.
Once again, it all depends on what you are going to use it for. Ground support, the P-40 (any version) winsIf we go to 1943, the balance shifts in favor of the late Yak 1 with the cut down rear deck. Improved horsepower to weight ratio means the Yak's maneuverability puts it on near parity with the Bf 109G. The later P-40s just get heavier, with increased armament.
The Yak-1 was superior to the Bf 109E, inferior to the Bf 109F, the Yak-1b was able to counter the the Bf 109G, each aircraft having its own superior attributes to the other.The Yak-1 was obsolete. The Yak-3 and Yak-9 were clearly not.
That's not strictly true, the Hurricane V did 327 mph at 2000 feet, the Spitfire IX, 326 mph at sea level, the Bf 109G-6, 306 mph at sea level. So its performance is comparable...Something that is sometimes lost on the forum discussing fighter performance is that fighter versus fighter for its own sake is a completely useless activity and rarely happened in WW2 or at any other time. The Bf109 may have been superior to the Hurricane and P40 as a fighter but the Allies had other planes to do the fighting while even the Hurricane soldiered on. The final variant (Mk V not put into production) of the Hurricane powered by a 1700 BHP Merlin 32 and 50% heavier but approximately the same in top speed as the Mk I which shows how the Hurricane was developed.
I think the Bf 109F was the pinnacle of the 109 series. I only think that because Erich Hartmann so stated. That said, it should handily out-climb and out-accelerate any P-40 with the exception of the XP-40Qs, of which 3 were built and never saw overseas service, much less combat. I'd think the P-40 retained it's advantage in both roll and turn down at it's best altitudes, but the Bf 109F was rarely down there in the ETO. It was mostly fighting on the Russian Front where they tried to stay high but were forced down by the Il-2s hitting German troops. It was either come down or watch the Il-2s kill troops ...
Down under 15,000 feet, the P-40E and onward were pretty good versus a Bf 109E; I'd still rather have the Bf 109, myself, given a choice. Pilots rarely had a choice; they flew what their side was flying. Once the Bf 109 hit the F and onward, the advantage was rather clearly on the side of the Bf 109, and even the Bf 109E was a far better plane above the mid-teens in altitude, which it usually WAS in the ETO. Perhaps not in the Med. The P-40 was easier to work on than the Bf 109 and I KNOW the Allison held a tune a LOT longer. But there was NOTHING wrong with a good-running DB-600 series engine. It was reliable, powerful, fuel-injected and was never a detriment to any airframe until it needed work. Much the same can be said of the Merlin ... if it wasn't running, it wasn't of much help. But if it WAS running, it was a good, nee' GREAT engine. Same for DB 600 series. They didn't "give up" in mid-fight unless battle-damage was the cause. My bet is the old Luftwaffe pilots swear by the DB as the old British pilots swear by the Merlin.
The P-40 achieved a good combat record despite being pitted against many opponents who were technically better on paper. Much of that was due to the planning and tactics used by the P-40 pilots. Though it wasn't the best fighter used in most of the theaters where it saw action, it was all we had when the war started and soldiered on until it became relegated to minor theater status late in the war. That's what happens when performance development stagnates while the enemy gets better. Ask any late-war A6M Zero pilot about that one! They knew what it meant to have been the best and then have the enemy move past them in performance. Were they still dangerous? Yes. But not overly, unless the pilot was good. Then ANY fighter is dangerous. Put Erich Hartmann in a P-40N sometime in April 1945. and I'd bet on him versus anyone flying anything available (at the time). But on average, the P-40 was near the bottom of the heap if going by performance numbers alone, after 1942. That didn't mean it wasn't useful in a LOT of places and for a lot of missions.
We have a lot of threads uselessly comparing the P-40 to the Spitfire and Mustang. On the other hand, in my opinion, the proper comparison is with the other "obsolete" fighters that were thrust into the gap in the early war and fought on till the end in lower priority roles.
So, say you need fighters and these three designs are on your desk. Which do you want?
Having read through this entire thread, I feel the wrong comparisons are being made, we should have :-
Interception / Patrol: Lightning vs Beaufighter
Counter Air: P-40 vs Whirlwind vs P-39 vs Allison Mustang vs Tempest
High altitude interceptor: Spitfire V vs MiG-3
Bomber Interceptor / ground attack: Hurricane vs LaGG-3 vs Yak-7
Interception / Air Superiority: La-5/7 vs Spitfire IX vs Thunderbolt
Escort : Merlin Mustang vs Yak-9
Hi Kevin,That's not strictly true, the Hurricane V did 327 mph at 2000 feet, the Spitfire IX, 326 mph at sea level, the Bf 109G-6, 306 mph at sea level. So its performance is comparable...
The point that I am making is that there isn't a lot of speed difference at low altitude. In the field there may not be any. The Sea Hurricane IIc had the same performance as a Hurricane IIa or a Seafire IIc with four cannon, arrestor hook and catapult spools. So clearly the Sea Hurricane IIc had been cleaned up enough to give it an extra 13 mph. Perhaps 6/7 mph from the individual exhaust stubs and another 6/7 mph from something else. Meanwhile the Spitfire was having more and more kit added to it which reduced its top speed. The G-2 of 1943 with a fully rated engine no doubt did 329 mph, but the G-2/Trop of 1942 only did 306 mph at sea level. My assumption here is 327 mph for Hurricane V from about 500 to 2000 feet at which altitude tropical filters didn't have much effect. Maybe if you put a Merlin 66 into a Hurricane you would get the same performance as a Hellcat?Hi Kevin,
The Hurricane V with its 1,620 hp. at take-off and 1,640 hp. at 3,000 rpm
at 2,000 ft. Merlin 32 using +18 psi boost was capable of 326 mph. at 500 ft.
The first flight of this model was on 3 April 1943. The L.F Mk. IX Spitfire
was fully operational on 1 March 1943. Its top speed at 500 ft. was 338 mph.
The Bf 109G2 which became operational in April 1942 as capable of 329 mph
at 500 ft. The very maximum velocity of the Hurricane V was 326 mph at
500 -(2000 ft.). The maximum velocity of the Spitfire was 407 mph. at 22,000 ft.
The maximum velocity of the Bf 109G-2 was 414 mph at 23,000 ft.
Kevin, I just don't see the Hurricane V as being equal in any way.
One other note needs to be made. The Merlin 32 tended to overheat. The two
Hurricane Mk.IVs that were converted to Mk.Vs were converted back to Mk.IVs.
, Jeff
View attachment 507551
This is what the Australians reckoned you could get out of the P-40 for top speed and climb rate.The P-40E is certainly not sluggish low down and remember these planes had tropical / dust filters.
View attachment 507551 View attachment 507552