P-40 with Griffon engine
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Do it as they did on the latest XP-40Q, that have had two radiators relocated in the wings. Shaves drag, and counter-balances the longer & heavier engine.
Shortround6
Major General
Why do people automatically assume the radiator on the P-40 was so bad?
Or assume that all ventral radiators were good?
The P-40 was fitted with several different radiator set-ups, While test results may be lacking we can note that they never changed the production versions.
wuzak
Captain
Indeed.
The XP-40 had a ventral radiator, but it was changed because it was so bad and didn't work.
Indeed the Griffon had been designed to fit into space left by the Merlin. As a result the Griffon engine Spitfire XII could be in service in 1942. Given there was P40's with Merlins the changeover would be relatively easy.
I think a Griffon P40 would have worked fine. P40's with the two speed supercharger Merlin 20 worked better than the Allison versions. Had the P40 been given the two speed two stage Merlin 60 I think the P40 would have had a 400mph speed as least as fast as the Spitfire. Early Griffons were going into Spitfire XII and there must have been few to spare.
License production of the Griffon is an interesting thought.
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- #11
Why didn't the ventral radiator work?
IIrc chin radiators were the worst dragwise.
An annular or drum radiator like late-war German planes featured would have been a simple and dragwise efficient solution to make the P-40 a fighter in the Spitfire XIV and Fw 190D category.
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- #13
I understand that the Mustang was a better airframe as it could carry much more fuel and needed fewer horsepower.
I wonder if the P-40Q airframe could have been modified to accommodate larger tanks.
But a P-40Q with Griffon should have been the equal of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
GregP
Major
The P-40Q was a very good airplane, but it DID come to the table somewhat late. It flew Jun 43, but didn't really make a splash until Nov 43. The thought to install a Griffon engine could have been as early as the first XP-40Q since the Griffon was around at the time. But isolationist views at the time likely would have prevented Curtiss and the Army from buying other than an American. The Merlin in the P-51B first flew 30 Nov 42. The only reason they tried the Merlin was that it was not a fighter anticipated to be used by the USAAC/F. Once they flew it, it was another story.
So, the move to put a Griffon in the P-40 might easily have cropped up if they had any Griffons ... that is doubtful since the Griffon was being used in the UK and the U.S.A. wasn't making them. I doubt the British had the Griffon capacity to export them to the U.S.A. Still, the beast would have been interesting!
A P-40Q bubble-canopy variant COULD have been flying in late 1943 - early 1944, but never materialized. Another "might have been" that could have made a difference in the war.
So, the move to put a Griffon in the P-40 might easily have cropped up if they had any Griffons ... that is doubtful since the Griffon was being used in the UK and the U.S.A. wasn't making them. I doubt the British had the Griffon capacity to export them to the U.S.A. Still, the beast would have been interesting!
A P-40Q bubble-canopy variant COULD have been flying in late 1943 - early 1944, but never materialized. Another "might have been" that could have made a difference in the war.
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wuzak
Captain
Very doubtful.
wuzak
Captain
The only reason why a Griffon P-51 didn't go too much further than initial analysis is that NAA considered the number of changes required to be excessive.
The Spitfire XII entered service in early 1943,
There were not many to spare. Apart from the Spitfire XII, Griffons were going to the Fairey Firefly.
There were only ~8,000 Griffons of all marks built, and that includes many built post-war.
wuzak
Captain
Why didn't it work? Two words. Curtiss. Wright.
Only joking, but the design may have suffered from excessive turbulence from the under surface of the aircraft.
The Hawker Tornado prototype also started with a ventral radiator that didn't work, and was switched to the chin position very quickly.
It worked for Hawker on the Hurricane, but not the Tornado.
Reluctant Poster
Staff Sergeant
- 1,384
- Dec 6, 2006
Packard was set up to be capable of producing Griffons, but not simultaneously with Merlins according to the Fedden Mission
An annular radiator was tried on a Tempest, it had a translating cowling, and proved superior to the chin radiator. The larger surface area meant lowere pressure loss and therefore lower drag. It wasn't pursued because it created a Centre of Gravity shift forward that would have disrupted production to implement design corrections.
The problem with a belly radiator is it also prevents carriage of drop tanks and bombs.
wuzak
Captain
If only the took over the Continental factory set up to build the IV-1430, which eventually produced Merlins.
