SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
You weren't kidding! Great video. We get to"meet" Jeffery Ethel and I think a myth just might be busted. Thanks big time for the post.
p 40
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You weren't kidding! Great video. We get to"meet" Jeffery Ethel and I think a myth just might be busted. Thanks big time for the post.
Well some did have Packard Merlins fitted later, if the Allison had delivered similar altitude performance with single stage it would have had a much different history, still almost 14,000 were made so it was doing something right.
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true it still did something well
A 27L engine with a 1-stage supercharger on the P-40 will not cut it anyway past 1940.
I just meant optimised for a higher altitude, it would have been more use in the desert.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
My opinion: it was a good airplane, not great, and did yeoman's work in different theaters against different challenges both in the form of enemy airplanes and local/regional climates.
I imagine, as is so often true, that it really comes down to who's in the cockpit of the opposing planes.
I imagine, as is so often true, that it really comes down to who's in the cockpit of the opposing planes.
Shortround6
Major General
Depends on the one stage supercharger
Although waiting until the spring/summer of 1942 to put in the Merlin XX/Packard V-1650-1 did leave things a bit late.
Depends on the one stage supercharger
Although waiting until the spring/summer of 1942 to put in the Merlin XX/Packard V-1650-1 did leave things a bit late.
Even the V-1650-1 in service in Autumn of 1941 on a P-40 still means a lower-performing fighter than it was the Spitfire V, that itself was no match for Bf 109F-4 or Fw 190A-1/A-2.
Granted, if we - RR or Allison - whip up a big S/C (at least as good & big as the one from Merlin 46/47), use the variable-speed gear (or at least 2-speed gear) for it, attach the water-alcohol injection and possibly intercooler, then we might have a 400 mph P-40 that is also great on lower altitudes.
Unfortunately, there was no such engine available, while P-40... lucked out with 2-stage supercharged engines that were in production.
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GregP
Major
I have spoken with two pilots who flew both the P-36 and the P-40. Both of them said that they preferred the P-36 to the P-40. Both said the P-36 was more maneuverable and climbed slightly better.
We all know the P-40 was the faster of the two (generally 360 mph for a P-40E and about 313 mph for a P-36) , but these guys liked the radial engine variant better for maneuverability and climb. I quote them because they are the only two pilots I spoke with who flew both models. Once WWII broke out and we were in it, I think speed was more important to the people who made the fighter aircraft purchasing decisions than intangibles such as maneuverability, a well-balanced control feel, and perhaps rate of climb. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems that way to me.
We all know the P-40 was the faster of the two (generally 360 mph for a P-40E and about 313 mph for a P-36) , but these guys liked the radial engine variant better for maneuverability and climb. I quote them because they are the only two pilots I spoke with who flew both models. Once WWII broke out and we were in it, I think speed was more important to the people who made the fighter aircraft purchasing decisions than intangibles such as maneuverability, a well-balanced control feel, and perhaps rate of climb. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems that way to me.
P-40 + R-2800 = almost an Fw 190A equivalent.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Bean-counters understand numbers. We see that in many fields, not just military acquisition. Given that intangibles -- or, in the case of flying, tangibles such as maneuverability, comfort, and/or ease or difficulty of handling -- are very hard to put onto paper in plain numbers, they often get overlooked. Things like speed, range, and bombload grab attention when contracts are let.
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Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
Please do not interpret this as disrespect (because it is not), but I do believe you are shortchanging the Würger. To me it seem so much more compact a design, which benefited from many advances in technology and engineering compared to when the P-36 was designed, not only in output of radial engines.
With a paraphrase: Almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Fw-190A
No worries
I'm very fond of the Fw 190 myself. I do not agree with the last sentence quoted, however, and will stick to my 'almost an Fw 190A equivalent' opinion.
Shortround6
Major General
P-40 with an R-2800
Ok........... it is a P-60C.
But lets think about putting an R-2800 (even one out of a B-26A) into a P-40E for just a bit and think about what would be needed/changed to make even a somewhat flyable airplane by average service pilots. Or have enough endurance to make it to the next airfield.
Ok........... it is a P-60C.
But lets think about putting an R-2800 (even one out of a B-26A) into a P-40E for just a bit and think about what would be needed/changed to make even a somewhat flyable airplane by average service pilots. Or have enough endurance to make it to the next airfield.
Well, before the mutant P-60 project, P&W took a P-40-CU airframe and mounted a R-1830 to as above apparently and without much work got 16% boost in speed over the P-36. I would imagine going up to the R-2600 or R-2800 would not have been as difficult as imagined. The real problem in the end was Curtis-Wright which wasn't up to dealing with being a modern aircraft company.
(photo & info found here: P-40B (based on the original Curtiss blueprints) - In-Progress Pics - ARC Discussion Forums (arcforums.com) )
Shortround6
Major General
I like the Bolded part.
The engine used in this aircraft was developed from the two stage engine in the F4F wildcat. While P & W got the airframe in Sept 1940 they weren't posting the high speed numbers until the end of 1942 with the highest speeds recorded in the summer of 1943.
But heh, it was all done evening and weekends and lunch breaks right? not much real work.
The plane had no armor, no self sealing tanks and provision for four .30 cal guns in the wings (not fitted)
The Army was very interested in the exhaust system with the jet thrust it provided in late 1942.
The P & W engine used weighed between 1572 and 1607lbs depending on reduction gear used.
The P & W engine itself was heavier than the V-12s but lighter installed since it didn't need around 300lbs of radiator and coolant.
R-2600 went about 1900lbs or more depending on variant.
R-2800s started at about 2270lbs for a single stage two speed supercharger.
Installed weight of the big radials is going to add several hundred pounds more than the dry weight comparison.
Sticking one of these monster motors in plane that had a reputation for ground looping and need the fuselage stretched (vertical stabilizer moved back 20in) to cope with the 1300hp RR engine leaves one wondering what would be needed for one of the big radials.
The engineers at Curtiss weren't stupid. They may have been less than inspired but not stupid. The P-60 tails grew in response to the need for stability from the larger engines.
Then there is the boring logistics "stuff". The P-40 was in service and doing a reasonable but not stellar job. If you put R-2800s into them when do you do it and how many. The P-40 was sorted, the P-60 never was. You may lose thousands of P-40s creating a whole new logistics line for a few hundred radial engine types. Which other US plane which historically had R-2800s goes without them, certainly not Corsairs and Hellcats.I like the Bolded part.
The engine used in this aircraft was developed from the two stage engine in the F4F wildcat. While P & W got the airframe in Sept 1940 they weren't posting the high speed numbers until the end of 1942 with the highest speeds recorded in the summer of 1943.
But heh, it was all done evening and weekends and lunch breaks right? not much real work.
The plane had no armor, no self sealing tanks and provision for four .30 cal guns in the wings (not fitted)
The Army was very interested in the exhaust system with the jet thrust it provided in late 1942.
The P & W engine used weighed between 1572 and 1607lbs depending on reduction gear used.
The P & W engine itself was heavier than the V-12s but lighter installed since it didn't need around 300lbs of radiator and coolant.
R-2600 went about 1900lbs or more depending on variant.
R-2800s started at about 2270lbs for a single stage two speed supercharger.
Installed weight of the big radials is going to add several hundred pounds more than the dry weight comparison.
Sticking one of these monster motors in plane that had a reputation for ground looping and need the fuselage stretched (vertical stabilizer moved back 20in) to cope with the 1300hp RR engine leaves one wondering what would be needed for one of the big radials.
The engineers at Curtiss weren't stupid. They may have been less than inspired but not stupid. The P-60 tails grew in response to the need for stability from the larger engines.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Logistics always seem to screw up perfectly good "what ifs".
The Brits said that their Mohawks did well dogfighting against Japanese fighters in Burma. They flew them until 1944 when they were considered completely worn out. The P-40E was a better warplane because it had heavier armament, better armor and wings beefed up for greater external stores but the Mohawk/P-36 seems like it would be a better sportplane.
