P-40s "particularly difficult to handle"?
- Thread starter OldGeezer
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ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Somewhere on the internet . . .
I recently ran across a tidbit from a translation of a Soviet internal memo/document concerning lend-lease US aircraft. It specifically mentioned something like 'what are we going to do about handling problems of the P-40?'. That is not a direct quote, but is the gist of what I remember. I was kind of surprised because I had not known that the Soviets received enough P-40s to be concerned.
I recently ran across a tidbit from a translation of a Soviet internal memo/document concerning lend-lease US aircraft. It specifically mentioned something like 'what are we going to do about handling problems of the P-40?'. That is not a direct quote, but is the gist of what I remember. I was kind of surprised because I had not known that the Soviets received enough P-40s to be concerned.
Interesting, because even by the end of 1940 there wasn't a whole lot of Daffys around. There were only two units that operated them as day fighters, and more than 11 (between 11 and 13 depending on where you read) night fighter squadrons used them, most of which were set up in 1941, with a few in late 1940.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Lock the tail-wheel, FFS...I have nothing to add on the matter, but if the P-40 really is tougher than usual to handle then that would make me feel a lot better about my awful takeoffs and landings on the A2A P-40
So many runway excursions and ground loops
That was my first instinct, but I couldn't find the lever for it in the cockpit. Looked it up on the A2A forums way back when and found a post that stated that at least the early models didn't have a locking tailwheel. I'm not an expert on the P-40, nor a great pilot (especially when it comes to taildraggers!), so by all means feel free to correct me.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,257
- Mar 26, 2007
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Was the Defiant specifically named? Or possibly they said 'turret fighter'? The Fins were offered, and accepted, Blackburn Rocs and some got as far as being given Finnish markings and flown to Scotland ready to ferry to Finland when the Winter War ended. The Rocs were all surplus to British needs, not surprisingly.
drgondog
Major
The probable reason that The Greeks were told that the remaining P-40 production was devoted to RAF was that AAC banking heavily on XP-46 to replace P-40 (Recall that Materiel Command was trying to coerce NAA into building P-40 for Great Britain so that Curtiss could dedicate their production to the P-46. Curtiss never recovered their Pursuit line after the failure of the XP-46 and XP-60 series.
- Thread starter
- #30
Yes, the Defiant was specifically named. I probably should have just put in the full text up front, here it is:
"Washington, December 19, 1940—8 p.m.
"Two or three weeks ago the Greek Minister in Washington was informed that Greece would be allowed to purchase 30 pursuit planes in this country. After reference to his Government, the Minister stated that his Government desired to purchase 30 Curtiss-Wright P–40 pursuit planes. In as much as all of the P–40 planes now being produced are earmarked for Great Britain, the British Government suggested to General Metaxas, through British officials in Athens, that Britain would immediately furnish Greece with 30 Defiant planes, in exchange for Greece's agreement to forego the 30 Curtiss-Wright planes we had promised. On December 16 the British Chargé d'Affaires in Washington informed the Department that he had received a telegram from his Government stating that General Metaxas had advised the British Government that Greece would be quite satisfied to receive 30 planes from the British aviation forces in Egypt in substitution for the 30 P–40 planes offered by the United States Government. On December 17, however, the Greek Minister submitted a written communication to the Department, stating that "after a careful examination of the offer made in regard to the Defiant planes, the Greek Government came to the conclusion that these planes are not suitable and that Curtiss P–40's are the adequate ones… Therefore the Greek Government want to renew their urgent appeal to the U. S. Government…" On December 18 the Counselor of the Greek Legation in Washington agreed to telegraph his Government urging the acceptance of the Defiant planes.
"It is possible that the misunderstanding in this matter will be clarified by the British and Greek authorities. For your information, however, it should be pointed out that while the American Government has no intention of withdrawing the offer made to Greece, the informed authorities of this Government consider that Greece would be well-advised to accept the British offer for several reasons: (1) the time of delivery and shipment to Greece of the P–40's is uncertain; (2) the P–40 plane is said to be particularly difficult to handle, and partly for this reason our Army is not accepting any further planes of this type; (3) with no spare parts or mechanics in Greece familiar with this plane, the P–40 might soon be more of a liability to Greece than an asset.
"If the somewhat delicate situation with regard to these planes has not already been settled, the Department desires that unless you perceive some objection you take such measures as may be feasible and appropriate in an effort to persuade the Greek authorities that its advantage lies in accepting the Defiant offer. We desire to avoid any implication that the American Government is attempting to withdraw its offer to Greece. We are convinced, however, that the British offer is decidedly advantageous to Greece."
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,568
- May 13, 2018
Could this be about the time frame the Greek F4Fs were considered? I remember from some book (no...I'm not getting out the P-40 books, I just put back the P-39 books) the span between main L/G was about the same as the T-6, which is why the first P-40s made good fighter trainers.
- Thread starter
- #32
Yes, those were being discussed as a possible option too. The State Department archives are full of interesting stuff like this.
Defiants in Egypt in December 1940? That's a new one. The RAF order for production Defiants had barely been fulfilled and the ones that rolled off the production line following the withdrawal of the type from day fighter duties went to night fighter squadrons. There were Daffy target tugs that went to Egypt later in the war, but the first TT.1 variant wasn't completed until early 1942. Perhaps the Defiants were there for night fighter duties?
There were certainly Hurricanes in Egypt in December 1940, most of which were heading for Malta, but the primary fighter in the region was the Gladiator, which doesn't really match with P-40s.
- Thread starter
- #35
This interview (A Russian view of the Curtiss P-40 Tomahawk) mentions a tumbling that could happen in the early-model P-40s but not the later ones, and I seem to recall it had something to do with which fuel tanks were empty and which weren't, but my memory isn't what it used to be. Other aircraft had similar issues with certain fuel states of course. Having read even more of our own State Department correspondence, along with quite a bit of UK's as well, in connection with similar aircraft issues with Iran at about the same time, I believe literally anything would have been said to anybody who needed to hear it, to persuade them to do what we wanted them to. So I've decided to just ignore the whole alleged handling thing, along with the comment about how the Air Corps was no longer accepting any P-40s. Just political hogwash.
Mr. Gattling, a P40 pilot credited with destroying a warship by dive bombing talked about needing trim in a dive and was affecting P40 pilots ability to hit ships. I've read here about how much work it was to fly it with manual control of throttle, boost, trim, compared to later planes that were more automatic. Maybe these issues don't relate to your interests but in the early war there did seem to be a lot of non combat losses from engine trouble and landings. Edit, a bunch were blown up on the ground too at the start of the war by the Japanese.
Realize the need to trim is do to airspeed rise while going down the chute (to bomb). Actual dive bombers had "dive brakes" to keep the airspeed from climbing, negating any need for major trim changes.
I have done manual bombing in both the AT-38 and the OV-10. In both aircraft enroute to the range we would dive at some point to our release speed and trim out the plane. In the OV-10 we had a trim gauge of which we would take note. Once in the bombing pattern we would re-trim the plane, usually on downwind or base, to pickle speed so that the trip down the chute was uncluttered by the need to trim. In the AT-38 we would just guess by feel (approximate the nose heavy feel associated with your pickle speed). In a manual trim aircraft (pretty much all WW2 types) if the trim wheel has markings you can use that, or just remember how many turns it took to reset it after the dive to release speed.
Cheers,
Biff
GregP
Major
As always, ask the guy/gal who has done it. He/she probably has a better handle on it than anyone who hasn't.
Most of the issues with the P-40s were due to it just being a higher performance and more modern aircraft than early war pilots were used to. Higher landing speed, retractable landing gear, and probably double the engine power (and therefore torque) of any aircraft they had flown during training. Most pilots had practiced on aircraft like Stearmans, PT-17s and -19s, Tiger Moths and Miles Magister. During the emergencies of the early war, many had never flown advanced trainers like Harvards / Texans and weren't used to landing gear.
Some other new fighters like the Hurricanes were developed from long series of biplanes and had large wings with close to biplane style handling, low stall speed etc. I know that in Australia, when the 75th FS was taking their crash course (literally) of conversion to P-40s as they were flying north across Australia to Darwin, lost almost half of their aircraft in accidents, and about half of those were to things like forgetting to put the landing gear down.
That said, P-40 was probably a little harder to handle than a Hurricane, a Spitfire or a Wildcat. They did pull at very high speed and did require trim in a dive, although at least they had that option. One of the issues they ran into a bit later on in the history of the P-40 was while the original 'Tomahawk' type had just over a 1,000 HP engine, they got the heavier 'Kittyhawk' types which were underpowered, until they started increasing boost levels up to close to 1,500 hp at low altitude. This definitely made the plane more prone to swing, though that could be handled by using the trim (or having a strong leg). I believe Bobby Gibbes alludes to that in this interview here, comparing Tomahawk to Kittyahwk:
"Well it was basically the same aeroplane. We were a little disappointed when we first got the Kitty, we thought it'd be way ahead of the Tomahawk. In actual fact, it was a little bit better. One thing I personally didn't like about it was the Tomahawk had fairly high sides and you'd be sitting behind a thin sheet of metal but you felt safer. The Kittyhawk had perspex coming way down and you felt as if you were sitting up, very vulnerable, because you could see out so much. That was one feature I do remember. However, later when we got our Kittyhawks running properly - were getting better performance - they were a better aeroplane."
As for the magnificent James Edwards, here is another interview with him. Among other things he mentions Spitfire pilots having trouble landing in the sand. Adapting to local conditions in far flung Theaters was another major challenge. He also notes that some of the American pilots arriving in mid to late 1942 already had a lot of training time and more importantly, training on type. Training time on the specific aircraft is key, but is another 'luxury' many of the Allied pilots in the first couple of years of the war simply didn't have.
James Francis "Stocky" Edwards interview
"By this time, they decided to convert the Kittyhawks, see. Squadrons were going to get Kittyhawks. In fact, some of them there had Tomahawks and were going to get Kittyhawks. Interviewer: And these are the American planes? Can you describe them? P40's? P40's. P40's yes. (Inaudible) and they were coming out in the middle east in the Spring of '42. Interviewer: How did they compare to a Hurricane? Well, they were lots better than a Hurricane operationally. They were faster and they had a better armourment. They had a 6.5's. The Hurricanes at that time had 8 machine guns or 12 machine guns. But later, they had the cannons but still it was better than a Hurricane. It was a faster air plane and a number of things better. But the squadrons were then all converting to Kittyhawks cause Messerschmitts were now shooting down everything in the air and you couldn't do a show without running into them. And it didn't take very many Messerschmitts to upset the whole...cause they could climb up above and come down and from behind and out of the sun. And they were shooting down all sorts of our air planes. We flew around in bigger gaggles and they had smaller groups. But by that time, they had, some of them had been there a year, or their pilots anyway, and they had big scores already. And they stayed on. "
"When you first went to the dessert flying, you know, you really couldn't tell what was on the ground, you'd say nothing. It's like looking at that carpet; there's nothing there. And it took several weeks of many operational flights to realize that there were all kinds of things. Well, you could fly over a field to begin with and couldn't even see the air planes on the ground. See, it's all dusty and camouflage. Then maybe the sun would glint on a tele, on the perspecs and you'd pick up the rest of the field. But new pilots coming out from England with their Spitfires were just wrecking them. They'd land fifteen feet in the air because there was nothing to tell them where they were. We had a time when the United States group came out to join us flying P40's. They came to...they sent a squadron to, around with the other to, to double bank sort of thing. Find out what was going on. And to our squadron, the major, the CO of one of the squadrons came and he flew number 2 to me for a while. I'm a sergeant pilot and he never argued a bit. Someone said, "That's the guy to fly with." Anyway, he was my number 2 for a... I was very careful that we didn't run into Huns because I knew, you know, they... But these Americans were on P40's for a long time and they could really fly their air planes. They showed us, they taught us how to, how to cope with these things. They were beautiful flyers. This, incidentally, this major became a 3-star general in the... and he's still living in the States."
"We may have not had the best air plane, but we knew how to react when the109's came and how to confront them, you see. We flew in sections of four at that time, see, finger four. And the squadron would be split up from a twelve into three fours and if we were attacked, they...our defence was a turnabout into the enemy, a 180, you see. And the thing, secret was when to call it and how steep to turn and make everybody turn together, whether you could see the enemy or not. Just stay together, you see. Come out together, go back in together and so that the Hun would be facing the four air planes if he kept pursuit his attack, see. And this would break up, thwart their attacks most of the time. They would be down in small numbers normally. Two, four. Mostly though you had a sharp shooter with his number two, see. They might come over in a gaggle of eight, ten, twelve, but they'd break up in two's and so you had to keep track of the whole sky. They loved to...they would always get above and come down, you see. He would pick on the guys at the back, see. Fire and pull up. Roll off the top and come back down again. This was the tactic. So they loved to do this, like when we were escorting the bombers. As we'd turn over the target and the flak was coming up and they'd have the sun behind them, you see. This is when they loved to come down cause, you could have a hard time keeping track of them. And you had to be able to see all this going on. You had to see them before the attack. You had to see them coming and keep track of them in the air. And you know, it isn't that simple to just to go shoot down somebody. You've got to get in to position. So you arrange it so you make it very difficult for him or he puts himself in jeopardy in doing it or he just, he has to break off. We could out-turn them and they knew this, so they would not pursue the turn. They'd pull back up again. You couldn't climb after them; you'd stall out and they would just follow you down. You had it if you tried to follow them. And you might get one guy pulling up but his buddy would get you, you see. And if there's any stragglers or anything like that, they would be shot down."
Some other new fighters like the Hurricanes were developed from long series of biplanes and had large wings with close to biplane style handling, low stall speed etc. I know that in Australia, when the 75th FS was taking their crash course (literally) of conversion to P-40s as they were flying north across Australia to Darwin, lost almost half of their aircraft in accidents, and about half of those were to things like forgetting to put the landing gear down.
That said, P-40 was probably a little harder to handle than a Hurricane, a Spitfire or a Wildcat. They did pull at very high speed and did require trim in a dive, although at least they had that option. One of the issues they ran into a bit later on in the history of the P-40 was while the original 'Tomahawk' type had just over a 1,000 HP engine, they got the heavier 'Kittyhawk' types which were underpowered, until they started increasing boost levels up to close to 1,500 hp at low altitude. This definitely made the plane more prone to swing, though that could be handled by using the trim (or having a strong leg). I believe Bobby Gibbes alludes to that in this interview here, comparing Tomahawk to Kittyahwk:
"Well it was basically the same aeroplane. We were a little disappointed when we first got the Kitty, we thought it'd be way ahead of the Tomahawk. In actual fact, it was a little bit better. One thing I personally didn't like about it was the Tomahawk had fairly high sides and you'd be sitting behind a thin sheet of metal but you felt safer. The Kittyhawk had perspex coming way down and you felt as if you were sitting up, very vulnerable, because you could see out so much. That was one feature I do remember. However, later when we got our Kittyhawks running properly - were getting better performance - they were a better aeroplane."
As for the magnificent James Edwards, here is another interview with him. Among other things he mentions Spitfire pilots having trouble landing in the sand. Adapting to local conditions in far flung Theaters was another major challenge. He also notes that some of the American pilots arriving in mid to late 1942 already had a lot of training time and more importantly, training on type. Training time on the specific aircraft is key, but is another 'luxury' many of the Allied pilots in the first couple of years of the war simply didn't have.
James Francis "Stocky" Edwards interview
"By this time, they decided to convert the Kittyhawks, see. Squadrons were going to get Kittyhawks. In fact, some of them there had Tomahawks and were going to get Kittyhawks. Interviewer: And these are the American planes? Can you describe them? P40's? P40's. P40's yes. (Inaudible) and they were coming out in the middle east in the Spring of '42. Interviewer: How did they compare to a Hurricane? Well, they were lots better than a Hurricane operationally. They were faster and they had a better armourment. They had a 6.5's. The Hurricanes at that time had 8 machine guns or 12 machine guns. But later, they had the cannons but still it was better than a Hurricane. It was a faster air plane and a number of things better. But the squadrons were then all converting to Kittyhawks cause Messerschmitts were now shooting down everything in the air and you couldn't do a show without running into them. And it didn't take very many Messerschmitts to upset the whole...cause they could climb up above and come down and from behind and out of the sun. And they were shooting down all sorts of our air planes. We flew around in bigger gaggles and they had smaller groups. But by that time, they had, some of them had been there a year, or their pilots anyway, and they had big scores already. And they stayed on. "
"When you first went to the dessert flying, you know, you really couldn't tell what was on the ground, you'd say nothing. It's like looking at that carpet; there's nothing there. And it took several weeks of many operational flights to realize that there were all kinds of things. Well, you could fly over a field to begin with and couldn't even see the air planes on the ground. See, it's all dusty and camouflage. Then maybe the sun would glint on a tele, on the perspecs and you'd pick up the rest of the field. But new pilots coming out from England with their Spitfires were just wrecking them. They'd land fifteen feet in the air because there was nothing to tell them where they were. We had a time when the United States group came out to join us flying P40's. They came to...they sent a squadron to, around with the other to, to double bank sort of thing. Find out what was going on. And to our squadron, the major, the CO of one of the squadrons came and he flew number 2 to me for a while. I'm a sergeant pilot and he never argued a bit. Someone said, "That's the guy to fly with." Anyway, he was my number 2 for a... I was very careful that we didn't run into Huns because I knew, you know, they... But these Americans were on P40's for a long time and they could really fly their air planes. They showed us, they taught us how to, how to cope with these things. They were beautiful flyers. This, incidentally, this major became a 3-star general in the... and he's still living in the States."
"We may have not had the best air plane, but we knew how to react when the109's came and how to confront them, you see. We flew in sections of four at that time, see, finger four. And the squadron would be split up from a twelve into three fours and if we were attacked, they...our defence was a turnabout into the enemy, a 180, you see. And the thing, secret was when to call it and how steep to turn and make everybody turn together, whether you could see the enemy or not. Just stay together, you see. Come out together, go back in together and so that the Hun would be facing the four air planes if he kept pursuit his attack, see. And this would break up, thwart their attacks most of the time. They would be down in small numbers normally. Two, four. Mostly though you had a sharp shooter with his number two, see. They might come over in a gaggle of eight, ten, twelve, but they'd break up in two's and so you had to keep track of the whole sky. They loved to...they would always get above and come down, you see. He would pick on the guys at the back, see. Fire and pull up. Roll off the top and come back down again. This was the tactic. So they loved to do this, like when we were escorting the bombers. As we'd turn over the target and the flak was coming up and they'd have the sun behind them, you see. This is when they loved to come down cause, you could have a hard time keeping track of them. And you had to be able to see all this going on. You had to see them before the attack. You had to see them coming and keep track of them in the air. And you know, it isn't that simple to just to go shoot down somebody. You've got to get in to position. So you arrange it so you make it very difficult for him or he puts himself in jeopardy in doing it or he just, he has to break off. We could out-turn them and they knew this, so they would not pursue the turn. They'd pull back up again. You couldn't climb after them; you'd stall out and they would just follow you down. You had it if you tried to follow them. And you might get one guy pulling up but his buddy would get you, you see. And if there's any stragglers or anything like that, they would be shot down."
