P-47 identification
- Thread starter TARTARIN
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cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
Way too open ended of a question... You want generic factory markings, or unit markings or personal marking? Have a specific a/c, unit or theater in mind, as that is a start.
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- #3
cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
As you give no location, and I'm not psychic, it's going to be a little tough. Normally one would start with general location, then identify units operating within the area, and then start looking at loss reports. From there, one can then identify a or multiple airframes that were lost in the area. From there, it's simply narrowing down the available information. Once enough wreckage has been recovered, based on identifying factors, including part numbers, radio call numbers, paint, installed equipment and if you are lucky, an airframe data plate.
Where it gets complicated is when multiple units operated in an area, for a long period of time and there were a significant number of losses. Sometimes, a wreck is identified solely based on the process of elimination of all other possibilities and never has any concrete data to prove it. Contrary to newbie thoughts, finding a component s/n tag does not tie the part to a particular airframe. Part serialization and airframe serial numbers only matter to initial deliver of the aircraft to the service, and maintenance tracking. Once the aircraft gets delivered to the unit, s/n tracking of parts pretty much vanishes. Post war and more to current times, s/n parts are much more tracked within the maintenance record system.
Where it gets complicated is when multiple units operated in an area, for a long period of time and there were a significant number of losses. Sometimes, a wreck is identified solely based on the process of elimination of all other possibilities and never has any concrete data to prove it. Contrary to newbie thoughts, finding a component s/n tag does not tie the part to a particular airframe. Part serialization and airframe serial numbers only matter to initial deliver of the aircraft to the service, and maintenance tracking. Once the aircraft gets delivered to the unit, s/n tracking of parts pretty much vanishes. Post war and more to current times, s/n parts are much more tracked within the maintenance record system.
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Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,927
- Mar 26, 2007
Yes a chant i get in to at last.
I repeat to our heavenly fighter father in the infinite blue sky:
There will be a data plate on the engine with a serial number.
There will be a data plate in the cockpit with a serial number.
The serial number may also be applied to the instrument panel.
The guns will have serial numbers on them.
I repeat to our heavenly fighter father in the infinite blue sky:
There will be a data plate on the engine with a serial number.
There will be a data plate in the cockpit with a serial number.
The serial number may also be applied to the instrument panel.
The guns will have serial numbers on them.
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- #7
cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
MJ: Unless you have all the maintenance records and know that they were kept up to date, there is no way to be sure what the airframe is from those component s/n's. If you have the airframe data plate, or the radio call number plate off the instrument panel, then you have the ID. Engine, gun, radio, oil cooler and so on, serialized parts, generally were not tracked once the aircraft was in the field. At depot level, they might have enough people to track it all, but it really is meaningless, as most of those records were disposed of once the aircraft was stricken from the record. Out in the field, record keeping was not anywhere on the priority list....turning aircraft back to flight status and survival was.
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- #9
I know that.I'm well aware of how to track airframes and components. There are times that the MACR will also include the s/n of the engine and guns.
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cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
The only problem with that is that one don't know how old that data is. The data in the aircraft records could be as much as several months old at the time of loss. It really depended on the unit, where it was located and now far it was from the records. For example, one of my uncles flew in the 1st Air Commandos. He spend most of the time overseas in Burma, operating at times in China and India as well. Their maintenance depot was in Hailakandi, India. Rarely did they get a bird back to there for work, it was the pilots with a few mechanics doing any maintenance out in the field. With them being at times, more than a thousand miles away and working in monsoon conditions, paperwork just didn't get done timely, if at all for some things. To give you and idea of how hectic it was, between October 44, and Feb. 45, he flew about 202 hours and 360 combat missions. I saw one day in the record, where he few 5.5 hours and 24 separate missions....
Something else to keep in mind is that records simply vanished or never existed. I've been involved in chasing certain aircraft over their service time and have found a couple of cases where one gets transferred to a depot and simply vanishes from the records. It wasn't scrapped, wasn't transferred to another unit, it simply disappears from the records.
Something else to keep in mind is that records simply vanished or never existed. I've been involved in chasing certain aircraft over their service time and have found a couple of cases where one gets transferred to a depot and simply vanishes from the records. It wasn't scrapped, wasn't transferred to another unit, it simply disappears from the records.
So your theory is that ALL primary source documents (MACR's) are inaccurate? No possible way that the information in the MACR could be correct?
Just for fun, let's see if the OP comes up with some type of serial number and we see where that information leads us.
FYI - I've been dealing with warbirds for the last 40+ years as well. In fact, you've been to my house before.
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cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
Nope, not that all are incorrect, that one must look at the unit that had the aircraft and where they were and how they operated to make an assumption on accuracy. Remember that a MACR is not a primary source document for what is installed on an aircraft, but a derivative report. The aircraft maintenance file is a primary source for the aircraft data for the MACR. Example...for a report on an aircraft out of a UK base, for a unit that had been established on one or two airfields for months, I would expect the records to be quite good and accurate. Contrast that with a unit island hopping thru the Pacific, never in the same location for more than a few weeks or months, I would be much more suspect that they would be incomplete, or way behind until proven otherwise. Errors get made, records get lost or not transferred or they simply get overlooked at times. A lot of the forward areas were more concerned about getting aircraft airborne and keeping the enemy off of themselves over record keeping.
You know how it is the commercial world where record keeping is supposed to trump everything else....Think about doing it without computers, being in the field and all your files are 300 miles away....oh yeah, and some goober from the other side is trying to kill you daily.
I remember...I'm moving my L-5 to my house this week from the warehouse, I hope. It will be interesting if he can locate some usable serial numbers.
